Can anyone access bid documents?

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Can anyone access bid documents?

Post by adroth on Sun Sep 19, 2010 3:28 pm

Can anyone register on PhilGEPS to download bid documents for purposes of scrutiny and scholarly discussion?

Is the amount paid for the bid documents only required if you will actually take part in the bid?
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Re: Can anyone access bid documents?

Post by RDV @ GP3i on Sun Sep 19, 2010 3:39 pm

adroth wrote:Can anyone register on PhilGEPS to download bid documents for purposes of scrutiny and scholarly discussion?

Is the amount paid for the bid documents only required if you will actually take part in the bid?

Yes, on both. You only pay for the bid documents, when you take part in the bidding process, on bid submission or before you participate in the pre-bid conference (if any) where the procuring entity sets as a prior condition that prospective bidders should buy bidding documents first before they could participate in the pre-bid conference.
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Re: Can anyone access bid documents?

Post by adroth on Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:54 pm

Just clarifying Mr R . . . because the last thing we'd want is to cause problems.

An individual, who doesn't really want to take part in the bid, can actually download bid documents, and distribute to anyone without restrictions?
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Re: Can anyone access bid documents?

Post by engrjhez® on Mon Sep 20, 2010 8:17 am

adroth wrote:Can anyone register on PhilGEPS to download bid documents for purposes of scrutiny and scholarly discussion?

Is the amount paid for the bid documents only required if you will actually take part in the bid?

Bidding documents are actually public documents. Yes, it may be possible that someone will register with PhilGEPS for the sole purpose of scrutiny and scholarly discussion.

It is also a 'yes' on the second question, based on the first assumption. Of course, strictly speaking, only electronic copies may be downloaded for free. This will ensure that anyone can have equal chances of studying the bidding documents before they can actually join.

This will actually ensure two things:
1. (At the option of the Procuring Entity) Only those who will attend the pre-bid (if any) pay for the bidding documents fee (and not just attending and not participating later); payment can now be possible because they have already initial access in scrutinizing the documents before paying for them; and

2. The prospective bidder can check if they can comply outright with the requirements. This was not possible before because if they only wanted to join, they will have to pay for the 'non-refundable' bidding documents' fee - whether they will intend to join or not later.

Smile
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Re: Can anyone access bid documents?

Post by jcolas on Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:11 am

Can anyone register on PhilGEPS to download bid documents for purposes of scrutiny and scholarly discussion
Just clarifying Mr R . . . because the last thing we'd want is to cause problems.

An individual, who doesn't really want to take part in the bid, can actually download bid documents, and distribute to anyone without restrictions?


I beg to disagree with the two gentlemen, Sir RDV and Sir Engrjhez and their claim that any Tom, Dick and Harry can just download bid documents. I was disturb by the responses of the two gentlemen and so I made some review and the following is what I found out. Below is the On Line Registration page of the PhilGEPS which comes out when you press the Register Button.

Thank you for your interest in participating on the PhilGEPS. The PhilGEPS is open to all government agencies and public organizations in the Philippines whose procurement practices are governed by the laws and regulations of the Philippines, and to all suppliers, both local and foreign, who wish to market and sell their goods and services to these government organizations.

In the On Line Registration page, when you present your self as a government agency, you will be ask to provide the Agency Tax Identification Number, aside from other data which you can not easily secure. The same is true when you present yourself as a Supplier. You have to provide Business TIN, Web Site Address and other data which are not readily available to every Tom, Dick and Harry. What am I trying to drive at? I am trying to assure every body and my basis are what I presented above, that not anybody can download any bid document with out first registering as buyer or supplier and you can only do this by going through the Registration process. For scholarly discussion, anybody can just access the web of the GPPB/Procurement Service/DBM and you will be presesented with the law on procurement, but not the bid docs. To Adroth, sleep tight. I can ssure you that not anybody can download bid docs.
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Re: Can anyone access bid documents?

Post by adroth on Mon Sep 20, 2010 3:05 pm

jcolas wrote:I beg to disagree with the two gentlemen, Sir RDV and Sir Engrjhez and their claim that any Tom, Dick and Harry can just download bid documents. I was disturb by the responses of the two gentlemen and so I made some review and the following is what I found out. Below is the On Line Registration page of the PhilGEPS which comes out when you press the Register Button.

Thank you for your interest in participating on the PhilGEPS. The PhilGEPS is open to all government agencies and public organizations in the Philippines whose procurement practices are governed by the laws and regulations of the Philippines, and to all suppliers, both local and foreign, who wish to market and sell their goods and services to these government organizations.

In the On Line Registration page, when you present your self as a government agency, you will be ask to provide the Agency Tax Identification Number, aside from other data which you can not easily secure. The same is true when you present yourself as a Supplier. You have to provide Business TIN, Web Site Address and other data which are not readily available to every Tom, Dick and Harry. What am I trying to drive at? I am trying to assure every body and my basis are what I presented above, that not anybody can download any bid document with out first registering as buyer or supplier and you can only do this by going through the Registration process. For scholarly discussion, anybody can just access the web of the GPPB/Procurement Service/DBM and you will be presesented with the law on procurement, but not the bid docs. To Adroth, sleep tight. I can ssure you that not anybody can download bid docs.

Hi jcolas,

I am familiar with the restrictions for creating a PhilGEPS account. But these rules are more about how Procurement Service ensures that only serious entities gain access to the system, rather than to the bid documents specifically.

Ultimately what I seek to clarify is restrictions with regard to the bid documents themselves.

What if a person who is properly registered on PhilGEPS -- in accordance with existing rules -- downloads bid documents for bids that he/she has no intention of taking part in . . . and then freely makes it available to anyone and everyone by posting them in a blog or some other medium.

Would that supplier be in violation of any law, rule, or circular?
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Re: Can anyone access bid documents?

Post by sunriser431 on Mon Sep 20, 2010 7:47 pm

adroth wrote:
What if a person who is properly registered on PhilGEPS -- in accordance with existing rules -- downloads bid documents for bids that he/she has no intention of taking part in . . . and then freely makes it available to anyone and everyone by posting them in a blog or some other medium.

Would that supplier be in violation of any law, rule, or circular?
With due respect to all of you guys, may I butt in. Hopefully with these piece of information can be of help. bounce
PHILGEPS Supplier Agreement
1.1 xxxx
2.1Ownership and Use of Information
We acknowledge that any Information that we receive through the Philippine Government Electronic Procurement System is owned either by the government agency that issued the Information or by PS-DBM. We agree that we will not use, store, copy, or reproduce the Information, or distribute or disclose it to any third party, except for the sole purpose of having such third party assist us in evaluating an opportunity or preparing a response to an opportunity. We agree that we will not sell to any third party, or make available for the purpose of resale to any third party, any Information received from the Philippine Government Electronic Procurement System without the prior written consent of PS-DBM.
. Peace

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Re: Can anyone access bid documents?

Post by jcolas on Mon Sep 20, 2010 9:12 pm

What was quoted by Sir sunriser is just one among the Terms and Conditions that both the Supplier/buyer should accept before they can be registered with the philGEPS. I would like to add, however, that I find the scenario presented by Sir Adroth as very nil to happen, but if it should happen and that will be the basis of third parties to join the bidding or any procurement activity for that matter, the submission wll not be entertained as it is clear that postings should be based on informations from the PhilGEPS alone. If the information that you used are data which were posted in other blogs/medium, even if lifted from PhilGEPS, your submission to the procuring entity will be null and void.
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Re: Can anyone access bid documents?

Post by adroth on Tue Sep 21, 2010 12:15 am

Thanks for your responses thus far gents.

sunriser431 wrote:With due respect to all of you guys, may I butt in. Hopefully with these piece of information can be of help. bounce
PHILGEPS Supplier Agreement
1.1 xxxx
2.1Ownership and Use of Information
We acknowledge that any Information that we receive through the Philippine Government Electronic Procurement System is owned either by the government agency that issued the Information or by PS-DBM. We agree that we will not use, store, copy, or reproduce the Information, or distribute or disclose it to any third party, except for the sole purpose of having such third party assist us in evaluating an opportunity or preparing a response to an opportunity. We agree that we will not sell to any third party, or make available for the purpose of resale to any third party, any Information received from the Philippine Government Electronic Procurement System without the prior written consent of PS-DBM.
. Peace

If a supplier violates this agreement, will this be the only punitive action that he/she can face?

jcolas wrote:If the information that you used are data which were posted in other blogs/medium, even if lifted from PhilGEPS, your submission to the procuring entity will be null and void.
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Re: Can anyone access bid documents?

Post by engrjhez® on Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:17 pm

jcolas wrote:
I beg to disagree with the two gentlemen, Sir RDV and Sir Engrjhez and their claim that any Tom, Dick and Harry can just download bid documents. x x x

You are completely free to disagree, jcolas, as it is the reason why forums exist. However, I based my answer on the following:

Sec.3.b [IRR-RA 9184] Competitiveness by extending equal opportunity to enable private contracting parties who are eligible and qualified to participate in public bidding. This means 'all is fair in love and war'. What Juan can download, Pedro must be able to download to. Take note how the sub-section is worded. Equal opportunity comes before participating. This means anybody can download although not all can be participants.

No.5 of Section I. Invitation to Bid, PBD 3rd Edition, 2nd Paragraph. It may also be downloaded free of charge from the website of the Philippine Government Electronic Procurement System (PhilGEPS) and the website of the Procuring Entity, provided that Bidders shall pay the nonrefundable fee for the Bidding Documents not later than the submission of their bids. Which is self explanatory.

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Re: Can anyone access bid documents?

Post by jcolas on Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:00 pm

Can anyone register on PhilGEPS to download bid documents for purposes of scrutiny and scholarly discussion?

I underlined the key word that I beleive is the bone of contention. With the securities, which I mentioned above, which PhilGEPS have installed, I posted that not anybody can register at the PhilGEPS with the intention of wrecking havoc; but this became moot and academic as Sir Adroth stated in his response that he is familiar with the restrictions for creating a PhilGEPS Account and what he is really referring to is the restriction as regards the bid documents. He further asked what violation will a person incur if he lifts our posts(bid docs) at the PhilGEPS, put it in another blog/medium and allow others to use that as its source in coming up with their own posts. The rest is history. As you have posted Engrjhez, we are in a forum and I fully agree with you and I believe these are all scholarly exchange of ideas. Each in every one of us has its own basis in coming up with our posts and we will only know which is the more appropriate response to the problem at hand if and when the poster who posted the querry will so acknowledge; but it is not who gave the correct answer that matters. What is important, and I am adressing this to all posters, whether elite, active or new member, is that we keep the fire burning and in so doing, we educate new members and in the process we are also learning new ideas. Nobody has the monopoly of knowledge of the GPRA. We are all learners in this field. Peace to all.
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Re: Can anyone access bid documents?

Post by sunriser431 on Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:53 pm

For those interested to read the "PHILGEPS Supplier Agreement". Try this LINK bounce
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Re: Can anyone access bid documents?

Post by engrjhez® on Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:53 pm

adroth wrote:Can anyone register on PhilGEPS to download bid documents for purposes of scrutiny and scholarly discussion? x x x

My straightforward answer is YES.

In fact, some students even visit me at the office for interview and asking for sample bidding documents as part of their research study in their baccalaureate courses. There was even one time a Master's student inquired me of similar matter. I gave copies, but only where I could not violate Section 19.

Anyone can register on PhilGEPS to download documents. Of course subject to PhilGEPS regulations. But even without PhilGEPS registration, there are other media where a person can obtain similar documents. The website of Procuring Entity (if any), or after knowing from the bulletin boards (conspicuous places) and newspapers (if available), they may drop by the Procuring Entity's address to inspect the documents.

Now, on where and how the 'scholarly discussion' will take place is the next thing to know. Covered by copyright, it is but just 'scholarly' to include citation on the use of PBDs as reference (as part of the manuscript). Hence, with scholarly attributes, no copyright is violated, and freedom continues. Smile
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Re: Can anyone access bid documents?

Post by jcolas on Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:25 pm

I rest my case on this issue Sir Engrjhez. It was such a challenge sparring with an elite poster and I thank you for the opportunity.
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Re: Can anyone access bid documents?

Post by engrjhez® on Tue Sep 21, 2010 11:00 pm

jcolas wrote:I rest my case on this issue Sir Engrjhez. It was such a challenge sparring with an elite poster and I thank you for the opportunity.
Please do not take the 'elite poster' seriously. It is just an indicator. Nothing more, nothing less. Sabi mo nga, everyone's a learner here. If there was a very good reason why we should regulate the issuance of bidding documents outside the procurement process, then I would submit to it.

Mahirap talaga lalo na kapag work na natin (in the form of bidding documents) ang ini-scrutinize. But we are expected to deliver the highest proficiency level we could. Aside from that, the required transparency by law. So, even if we fear that bidding documents may be used differently from its purpose, we still cannot deny its presentation to the public. In the end, violations due to improper use will be for those who will use them improperly.

It was also such an honor speaking with a BAC member. As to everyone in this forum, never fear to bring thoughts. As they say, "no guts, no glory".

A pleasant evening to all Smile
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Re: Can anyone access bid documents?

Post by RDV @ GP3i on Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:07 am

adroth wrote:Just clarifying Mr R . . . because the last thing we'd want is to cause problems.

An individual, who doesn't really want to take part in the bid, can actually download bid documents, and distribute to anyone without restrictions?

Adroth, sorry for late reply, I am still in an out-of-town attending a seminar-workshop, where being online is quite prohibitive based on hotel rates and where you need to get out to look for a free wifi coffee shop Very Happy, but I understand where you are coming from.

What a procuring entity may do, particularly for security reasons or to limit downloading only to "serious bidders", is not to provide all the important information, like the detailed technical specifications, online. A general technical specifications may be posted online but with the caveat that the detained technical specifications may be obtained directly, personally or electronically, from the BAC Secretariat. But all other bidding documents and their contents should be available online.
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Re: Can anyone access bid documents?

Post by adroth on Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:15 pm

Thanks everyone. :-)
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Re: Can anyone access bid documents?

Post by Ignatius1 on Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:30 am

engrjhez® wrote:
jcolas wrote:
I beg to disagree with the two gentlemen, Sir RDV and Sir Engrjhez and their claim that any Tom, Dick and Harry can just download bid documents. x x x

Sec.3.b [IRR-RA 9184] Competitiveness by extending equal opportunity to enable private contracting parties who are eligible and qualified to participate in public bidding. This means 'all is fair in love and war'. What Juan can download, Pedro must be able to download to. Take note how the sub-section is worded. Equal opportunity comes before participating. This means anybody can download although not all can be participants.

No.5 of Section I. Invitation to Bid, PBD 3rd Edition, 2nd Paragraph. It may also be downloaded free of charge from the website of the Philippine Government Electronic Procurement System (PhilGEPS) and the website of the Procuring Entity, provided that Bidders shall pay the nonrefundable fee for the Bidding Documents not later than the submission of their bids. Which is self explanatory.

Smile

I apologize for reviving this topic.

Based on the items you presented - am I understanding it correctly that purchasing entities are required by law to make available to the public bid documents (including required specs)? If so, are there exceptions to it?

Here's an excerpt from IRR(?):
17.5. Prospective bidders shall be given ample time to examine the bidding
documents and to prepare their respective bids. To provide ample time, the
concerned BAC shall promptly issue the bidding documents for the contract to
be bid at the time the Invitation to Apply for Eligibility and to Bid is first
advertised. Bidders may be asked to pay for the bidding documents to recover
the cost of its preparation and development. The BAC shall issue the bidding
documents upon payment of the corresponding cost thereof to the
collecting/disbursing officer of the procuring entity concerned.


The document you mention does seem to indicate that it may be downloaded for free from PhilGEPS, and the later portion seems to indicate that payment is only required when submitting bids, I just want to make sure there is no contradiction between the IRR and the document you highlighted (and if there is, which one prevails?).
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Re: Can anyone access bid documents?

Post by engrjhez® on Tue Dec 28, 2010 7:05 pm

Ignatius1 wrote:
I apologize for reviving this topic.

Based on the items you presented - am I understanding it correctly that purchasing entities are required by law to make available to the public bid documents (including required specs)? If so, are there exceptions to it?

Here's an excerpt from IRR(?):
17.5. Prospective bidders shall be given ample time to examine the bidding
documents and to prepare their respective bids. To provide ample time, the
concerned BAC shall promptly issue the bidding documents for the contract to
be bid at the time the Invitation to Apply for Eligibility and to Bid is first
advertised. Bidders may be asked to pay for the bidding documents to recover
the cost of its preparation and development. The BAC shall issue the bidding
documents upon payment of the corresponding cost thereof to the
collecting/disbursing officer of the procuring entity concerned.


The document you mention does seem to indicate that it may be downloaded for free from PhilGEPS, and the later portion seems to indicate that payment is only required when submitting bids, I just want to make sure there is no contradiction between the IRR and the document you highlighted (and if there is, which one prevails?).

You are quoting the old IRR-A which was already amended since September 03, 2009. Here are the subsections corresponding on your concern:

17.3. To provide prospective bidders ample time to examine the Bidding Documents and to
prepare their respective bids, the concerned BAC shall make the Bidding Documents
for the contract to be bid available for the following period:

a) For the procurement of goods and infrastructure projects, from the time the
Invitation to Bid is first advertised/posted until the deadline for the submission
and receipt of bids.

b) For the procurement of consulting services, eligibility documents shall be made
available from the time the Request for Expression of Interest is first
advertised/posted until the deadline for the eligibility check, and the Bidding
Documents, from the determination of the short list until the deadline for the
submission and receipt of bids.

17.4. Bidders may be asked to pay for the Bidding Documents to recover the cost of its
preparation and development. The BAC shall issue the Bidding Documents upon
payment of the corresponding cost thereof to the collecting/disbursing officer of the
procuring entity concerned.

17.5. The procuring entity shall also post the Bidding Documents at its website and at the
PhilGEPS website from the time that the Invitation to Bid/Request for Expression of
Interest is advertised. Prospective bidders may download the Bidding Documents
from any of the said websites; Provided that, bidders shall pay the fee for the
Bidding Documents upon submission of their Bids.

Please download the latest IRR. Should there be any other concern, please feel free to drop by again. Smile
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Re: Can anyone access bid documents?

Post by Ignatius1 on Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:05 am

engrjhez® wrote:
Ignatius1 wrote:
I apologize for reviving this topic.

Based on the items you presented - am I understanding it correctly that purchasing entities are required by law to make available to the public bid documents (including required specs)? If so, are there exceptions to it?

Here's an excerpt from IRR(?):
17.5. Prospective bidders shall be given ample time to examine the bidding
documents and to prepare their respective bids. To provide ample time, the
concerned BAC shall promptly issue the bidding documents for the contract to
be bid at the time the Invitation to Apply for Eligibility and to Bid is first
advertised. Bidders may be asked to pay for the bidding documents to recover
the cost of its preparation and development. The BAC shall issue the bidding
documents upon payment of the corresponding cost thereof to the
collecting/disbursing officer of the procuring entity concerned.


The document you mention does seem to indicate that it may be downloaded for free from PhilGEPS, and the later portion seems to indicate that payment is only required when submitting bids, I just want to make sure there is no contradiction between the IRR and the document you highlighted (and if there is, which one prevails?).

You are quoting the old IRR-A which was already amended since September 03, 2009. Here are the subsections corresponding on your concern:

17.3. To provide prospective bidders ample time to examine the Bidding Documents and to
prepare their respective bids, the concerned BAC shall make the Bidding Documents
for the contract to be bid available for the following period:

a) For the procurement of goods and infrastructure projects, from the time the
Invitation to Bid is first advertised/posted until the deadline for the submission
and receipt of bids.

b) For the procurement of consulting services, eligibility documents shall be made
available from the time the Request for Expression of Interest is first
advertised/posted until the deadline for the eligibility check, and the Bidding
Documents, from the determination of the short list until the deadline for the
submission and receipt of bids.

17.4. Bidders may be asked to pay for the Bidding Documents to recover the cost of its
preparation and development. The BAC shall issue the Bidding Documents upon
payment of the corresponding cost thereof to the collecting/disbursing officer of the
procuring entity concerned.

17.5. The procuring entity shall also post the Bidding Documents at its website and at the
PhilGEPS website from the time that the Invitation to Bid/Request for Expression of
Interest is advertised. Prospective bidders may download the Bidding Documents
from any of the said websites; Provided that, bidders shall pay the fee for the
Bidding Documents upon submission of their Bids.

Please download the latest IRR. Should there be any other concern, please feel free to drop by again. Smile

Thank you very much for clarifying this item and providing the update to the IRR.
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