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Re: contract form or purchase order

Post by amang'65 on Thu Dec 10, 2009 11:49 am

007heran wrote:Thank you guys... I know you have more experiences on this thing than i am and am grateful that there is a venue like this for healthy exchange of ideas and opinions about RA 9184. I have learned a lot from you especially on how to keep an ambience of respect and cooperation within your organization including the COA (thanks sir mikel). Yeah, you are right sir amang1965, perhaps am too emotional in looking things but i believe we need to be in that way sometimes to learn a better way to deal with it next time. Again, thank you guys!!! cheers


yeow! i feel great, you are welcome james bond 007, heh.he.

amang.
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Re: contract form or purchase order

Post by sunriser431 on Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:29 pm

amang1965 wrote:
007heran wrote:Thank you guys... I know you have more experiences on this thing than i am and am grateful that there is a venue like this for healthy exchange of ideas and opinions about RA 9184. I have learned a lot from you especially on how to keep an ambience of respect and cooperation within your organization including the COA (thanks sir mikel). Yeah, you are right sir amang1965, perhaps am too emotional in looking things but i believe we need to be in that way sometimes to learn a better way to deal with it next time. Again, thank you guys!!! cheers


yeow! i feel great, you are welcome james bond 007, heh.he.

amang.
So in the end Peace and Harmony rules. Maligayang Pasko bom
sunriser431
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Re: contract form or purchase order

Post by amang'65 on Thu Dec 10, 2009 1:56 pm

sunriser431 wrote:
amang1965 wrote:
007heran wrote:Thank you guys... I know you have more experiences on this thing than i am and am grateful that there is a venue like this for healthy exchange of ideas and opinions about RA 9184. I have learned a lot from you especially on how to keep an ambience of respect and cooperation within your organization including the COA (thanks sir mikel). Yeah, you are right sir amang1965, perhaps am too emotional in looking things but i believe we need to be in that way sometimes to learn a better way to deal with it next time. Again, thank you guys!!! cheers


yeow! i feel great, you are welcome james bond 007, heh.he.

amang.
So in the end Peace and Harmony rules. Maligayang Pasko bom
sunriser431


yes sunriser, no rule is best but to have peace in your heart, 15 days na lang, likewise, Maligayang Pasko!!!!!
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Re: contract form or purchase order

Post by 007heran on Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:55 am

amang1965 wrote:
sunriser431 wrote:
amang1965 wrote:
007heran wrote:Thank you guys... I know you have more experiences on this thing than i am and am grateful that there is a venue like this for healthy exchange of ideas and opinions about RA 9184. I have learned a lot from you especially on how to keep an ambience of respect and cooperation within your organization including the COA (thanks sir mikel). Yeah, you are right sir amang1965, perhaps am too emotional in looking things but i believe we need to be in that way sometimes to learn a better way to deal with it next time. Again, thank you guys!!! cheers


yeow! i feel great, you are welcome james bond 007, heh.he.

amang.
So in the end Peace and Harmony rules. Maligayang Pasko bom
sunriser431

Same here guys!!! bom


yes sunriser, no rule is best but to have peace in your heart, 15 days na lang, likewise, Maligayang Pasko!!!!!
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Re: contract form or purchase order

Post by msm326 on Mon Dec 14, 2009 8:52 am

Good day...
What a healthy exchange of opinion from all of you guys....We were out for three days for the roll out seminar on the revised IRR.... Still we adhere to COA Circular 001-2009 but there are alreasy discussions on the COA side that they will issue another circular based on the Revised IRR wherein some of the documents were lessened to address the compliance on ARTA.
All ends well will definitely moves well....Sometimes we need to take a lot of patience and understanding ...foremost start our day with a daily prayer so things will not go out of control Laughing
We are all God's stewards....Have a Happy Christmas ...In our case we were badly hit by the two typhoons but we manage to stand and now we are smoothly back in all operations and services we are rendering....
msm326 Very Happy
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Re: contract form or purchase order

Post by Berna on Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:00 pm

This is my first time to visit the site... I am very much enlightened since this was the question i kept on asking since one of our suppliers insisted that we should issue purchase order instead of contract.
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Re: contract form or purchase order

Post by charlie brown on Tue Feb 02, 2010 5:19 pm

Bernadette G. Driza wrote:This is my first time to visit the site... I am very much enlightened since this was the question i kept on asking since one of our suppliers insisted that we should issue purchase order instead of contract.

Hi bernadette,

I am of the opinion that with the recent developments in procurement reform the PO would probably become extinct lol! already if we procure using the bid docs, we have the contract form, the NOA and the NTP to do the job of the PO. for other alternative methods that uses the RFQ, it is usually paired with the PO. However i can also sense that "empowering" the RFQ (that is, including the contract terms and conditions, etc.) would make more sense than including these in the PO. Of course these are but my gut feel at the moment, but if it turns out to be accurate then we might not need anymore the PO for the other alternative methods. the RFQ and the NOA might suffice. Perhaps it has to be discussed/coordinated with the proper agencies such as the COA. We should also understand that old habits die hard so we sometimes encounter auditors and accountants that require the PO even if there is already the contract and the ntp. Lets just hope that all of these will finally be reconciled in the near future.
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Re: contract form or purchase order

Post by msm326 on Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:39 am

Good Day.....
In our case then we issue both (contract and PO) since this is one of the major requirement our COA is looking when we are requesting for inspection.
msm326 Very Happy
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Re: contract form or purchase order

Post by charlie brown on Wed Feb 03, 2010 5:38 pm

msm326 wrote:Good Day.....
In our case then we issue both (contract and PO) since this is one of the major requirement our COA is looking when we are requesting for inspection.
msm326 Very Happy

ganoon nga sa ibang agency... In ours i just explain to the auditor why it is no longer necessary with the contract and all...
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Re: contract form or purchase order

Post by sunriser431 on Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:58 pm

Bernadette G. Driza wrote:This is my first time to visit the site... I am very much enlightened since this was the question i kept on asking since one of our suppliers insisted that we should issue purchase order instead of contract.
Sometimes we need to educate the suppliers, especially if they do business with government agency,(with new development in GPRA), however for those suppliers customary do business relationship with other private business entities, the PO is the normal documents they use, so in effect they also require PO from the government agency lol!( no offense intended)
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Re: contract form or purchase order

Post by tingjay on Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:54 pm

siguro ang contract is for serivces such as janitorial, security services and other services, while a PO is for goods such as supplies, equipment , vehichles, materials and so on..imagine, magdedeliver ng mga motor vehicles yung supplier, what will be the basis of the inspectors aside from the invoice? yung contract form ba? yung bid proposal ba na nandun yung specs ng mga vehicles?...not unlike pag may PO, PO at invoice lang pinagbabasehan ng mga inspectors...what do you think?
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Re: contract form or purchase order

Post by engrjhez® on Thu Sep 02, 2010 1:15 pm

tingjay wrote:siguro ang contract is for serivces such as janitorial, security services and other services, while a PO is for goods such as supplies, equipment , vehichles, materials and so on..imagine, magdedeliver ng mga motor vehicles yung supplier, what will be the basis of the inspectors aside from the invoice? yung contract form ba? yung bid proposal ba na nandun yung specs ng mga vehicles?...not unlike pag may PO, PO at invoice lang pinagbabasehan ng mga inspectors...what do you think?

There is already an answer in the 1st page of this thread with updates in brackets{}:
RDV @ GP3i wrote:Cesar:

For public bidding, you use the contract form in the Philippine Bidding Documents (PBDs), 2nd Edition. {now 3rd Ed}

The final contract shall include the Contract Agreement, the General Conditions of Contract, Special Conditions of Contract, Technical Specifications/Scope of Work, IAEB {now IB}, and Bidding Documents (which are all part of the PBDs), and other documents as well.

The Purchase Order (PO) is normally used for those procurement activities which do not involve competitive bidding.

RDV

You can browse the full story by clicking the numbers on the upper or lower right of the thread page. Smile
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Re: contract form or purchase order

Post by sunriser431 on Thu Sep 02, 2010 6:49 pm

tingjay wrote:xxxx what will be the basis of the inspectors aside from the invoice? yung contract form ba? yung bid proposal ba na nandun yung specs ng mga vehicles?...not unlike pag may PO, PO at invoice lang pinagbabasehan ng mga inspectors...what do you think?
I believe COA has Manual on Property Inspections for supplies, equipment etc., anyway these can be discuss with your COA resident auditor.or better yet ask a copy for guidance bounce my take on this topic. Peace.
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Re: contract form or purchase order

Post by jcolas on Fri Sep 03, 2010 8:21 am

what will be the basis of the inspectors aside from the invoice? yung contract form ba? yung bid proposal ba na nandun yung specs ng mga vehicles?...not unlike pag may PO, PO at invoice lang pinagbabasehan ng mga inspectors...what do you think?

Good Morning Sir Tingjay. For us at DepEd Regional Office, I do not find any problem as to what will be our basis in the inspection of deliveries. We can use the Purchase Order and we can use also the Contract. Why do I say this. The Contract Form, as prescribed by the GPRA includes among others Section VII-Technical Specifications. As long as you diligently included in Section VII the specifications of the requirements that you are procuring, then come inspection time, their will be no problem to be encountered by your Inspection Committee. Actually the problem is that, kahit sa Purchase Order kung minsan kulang o worst, walang nakalagay na specification, so that nahihirapan mga inspectors natin. So that whether we use the PO or the Contract, as long as the specifications are complete, I see no problem. Of course that includes other documents like for example the Invoice Receipts. Good Monring Forum members.!!!
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Re: contract form or purchase order

Post by charlie brown on Wed Oct 06, 2010 5:39 pm

tingjay wrote:siguro ang contract is for serivces such as janitorial, security services and other services, while a PO is for goods such as supplies, equipment , vehichles, materials and so on..imagine, magdedeliver ng mga motor vehicles yung supplier, what will be the basis of the inspectors aside from the invoice? yung contract form ba? yung bid proposal ba na nandun yung specs ng mga vehicles?...not unlike pag may PO, PO at invoice lang pinagbabasehan ng mga inspectors...what do you think?

i hope its okay if i revive this topic. In a competitive bidding, the basis of the inspectors in inspecting the goods will be the Inspections and Tests portion of the PBD under GCC Clause 16.1. the inspection committee should require a copy of this portion of the bid docs as their basis in the inspection. for Shopping and Small Value the inspection if relevant or require some special method other than mere counting, could be included in the terms and conditions of the RFQ. as i have always maintained, GPPB should perhaps come up with a sample form for the RFQ as well as a difinitive stand on the instances when the use of the PO is still relevant in view of the changes that have so far happened on procurement processess.
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Re: contract form or purchase order

Post by sunriser431 on Wed Oct 06, 2010 10:44 pm

charlie brown wrote:
tingjay wrote:siguro ang contract is for serivces such as janitorial, security services and other services, while a PO is for goods such as supplies, equipment , vehichles, materials and so on..imagine, magdedeliver ng mga motor vehicles yung supplier, what will be the basis of the inspectors aside from the invoice? yung contract form ba? yung bid proposal ba na nandun yung specs ng mga vehicles?...not unlike pag may PO, PO at invoice lang pinagbabasehan ng mga inspectors...what do you think?

i hope its okay if i revive this topic. In a competitive bidding, the basis of the inspectors in inspecting the goods will be the Inspections and Tests portion of the PBD under GCC Clause 16.1. the inspection committee should require a copy of this portion of the bid docs as their basis in the inspection. for Shopping and Small Value the inspection if relevant or require some special method other than mere counting, could be included in the terms and conditions of the RFQ. as i have always maintained, GPPB should perhaps come up with a sample form for the RFQ as well as a difinitive stand on the instances when the use of the PO is still relevant in view of the changes that have so far happened on procurement processess.
wow this topic is more than a year old, and still active. Peace
I believe the process and manner by which the inspection to be conducted is already clear, but for purposes and basis in documentation, is the PO# will suffice or the invoice? or the contract form? I think that was the intention of sir "tingjay".
bounce
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Re: contract form or purchase order

Post by charlie brown on Thu Oct 07, 2010 1:03 pm

sunriser431 wrote:
charlie brown wrote:
tingjay wrote:siguro ang contract is for serivces such as janitorial, security services and other services, while a PO is for goods such as supplies, equipment , vehichles, materials and so on..imagine, magdedeliver ng mga motor vehicles yung supplier, what will be the basis of the inspectors aside from the invoice? yung contract form ba? yung bid proposal ba na nandun yung specs ng mga vehicles?...not unlike pag may PO, PO at invoice lang pinagbabasehan ng mga inspectors...what do you think?

i hope its okay if i revive this topic. In a competitive bidding, the basis of the inspectors in inspecting the goods will be the Inspections and Tests portion of the PBD under GCC Clause 16.1. the inspection committee should require a copy of this portion of the bid docs as their basis in the inspection. for Shopping and Small Value the inspection if relevant or require some special method other than mere counting, could be included in the terms and conditions of the RFQ. as i have always maintained, GPPB should perhaps come up with a sample form for the RFQ as well as a difinitive stand on the instances when the use of the PO is still relevant in view of the changes that have so far happened on procurement processess.
wow this topic is more than a year old, and still active. Peace
I believe the process and manner by which the inspection to be conducted is already clear, but for purposes and basis in documentation, is the PO# will suffice or the invoice? or the contract form? I think that was the intention of sir "tingjay".
bounce

Im not sure what you meant when you said the process and manner of inspection is already clear. i dont see it in the GPM nor is it elucidated in the PBDs (tho its possible i have just not come accross it yet). But my concern really in bringing it up is because there are a lot of issues related to it that i have also attempted to discuss in other topics. partly also because just last week i have received complaints from end-users about not getting the kind of items that they wanted. this of course could either be due to faulty/inadequate specifications or haphazard inspection and testing. From my own experience the inspection and testing is a weak link both in the PBD preparation and in the project implementation. I think a lot of procurement practitioners just dont pay that much importance to it - yet. part of the problem also is that there is no standard way of inspecting and testing items. but its importance - the link between the inspection and tests as stated in the GCC/SCC and the work of the inspection committee - is not to be trivialized.

I may have missed the entire context of the topic. But if it is for for documentation, i believe a discussion with the resident auditor with particular reference to the new audit manual of COA may help.
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Re: contract form or purchase order

Post by sunriser431 on Thu Oct 07, 2010 3:44 pm

charlie brown wrote:
sunriser431 wrote:
charlie brown wrote:
tingjay wrote:siguro ang contract is for serivces such as janitorial, security services and other services, while a PO is for goods such as supplies, equipment , vehichles, materials and so on..imagine, magdedeliver ng mga motor vehicles yung supplier, what will be the basis of the inspectors aside from the invoice? yung contract form ba? yung bid proposal ba na nandun yung specs ng mga vehicles?...not unlike pag may PO, PO at invoice lang pinagbabasehan ng mga inspectors...what do you think?

i hope its okay if i revive this topic. In a competitive bidding, the basis of the inspectors in inspecting the goods will be the Inspections and Tests portion of the PBD under GCC Clause 16.1. the inspection committee should require a copy of this portion of the bid docs as their basis in the inspection. for Shopping and Small Value the inspection if relevant or require some special method other than mere counting, could be included in the terms and conditions of the RFQ. as i have always maintained, GPPB should perhaps come up with a sample form for the RFQ as well as a difinitive stand on the instances when the use of the PO is still relevant in view of the changes that have so far happened on procurement processess.
wow this topic is more than a year old, and still active. Peace
I believe the process and manner by which the inspection to be conducted is already clear, but for purposes and basis in documentation, is the PO# will suffice or the invoice? or the contract form? I think that was the intention of sir "tingjay".
bounce

Im not sure what you meant when you said the process and manner of inspection is already clear. i dont see it in the GPM nor is it elucidated in the PBDs (tho its possible i have just not come accross it yet). But my concern really in bringing it up is because there are a lot of issues related to it that i have also attempted to discuss in other topics. partly also because just last week i have received complaints from end-users about not getting the kind of items that they wanted. this of course could either be due to faulty/inadequate specifications or haphazard inspection and testing. From my own experience the inspection and testing is a weak link both in the PBD preparation and in the project implementation. I think a lot of procurement practitioners just dont pay that much importance to it - yet. part of the problem also is that there is no standard way of inspecting and testing items. but its importance - the link between the inspection and tests as stated in the GCC/SCC and the work of the inspection committee - is not to be trivialized.

I may have missed the entire context of the topic. But if it is for for documentation, i believe a discussion with the resident auditor with particular reference to the new audit manual of COA may help.
For further update on inspections and Testings ,you can refer to GAAM volume 11 and the Property and supply manual. For us GOCCs we used both reference manual for proper guidance. bounce
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Re: contract form or purchase order

Post by charlie brown on Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:22 pm

sunriser431 wrote:
charlie brown wrote:
sunriser431 wrote:
charlie brown wrote:
tingjay wrote:siguro ang contract is for serivces such as janitorial, security services and other services, while a PO is for goods such as supplies, equipment , vehichles, materials and so on..imagine, magdedeliver ng mga motor vehicles yung supplier, what will be the basis of the inspectors aside from the invoice? yung contract form ba? yung bid proposal ba na nandun yung specs ng mga vehicles?...not unlike pag may PO, PO at invoice lang pinagbabasehan ng mga inspectors...what do you think?

i hope its okay if i revive this topic. In a competitive bidding, the basis of the inspectors in inspecting the goods will be the Inspections and Tests portion of the PBD under GCC Clause 16.1. the inspection committee should require a copy of this portion of the bid docs as their basis in the inspection. for Shopping and Small Value the inspection if relevant or require some special method other than mere counting, could be included in the terms and conditions of the RFQ. as i have always maintained, GPPB should perhaps come up with a sample form for the RFQ as well as a difinitive stand on the instances when the use of the PO is still relevant in view of the changes that have so far happened on procurement processess.
wow this topic is more than a year old, and still active. Peace
I believe the process and manner by which the inspection to be conducted is already clear, but for purposes and basis in documentation, is the PO# will suffice or the invoice? or the contract form? I think that was the intention of sir "tingjay".
bounce

Im not sure what you meant when you said the process and manner of inspection is already clear. i dont see it in the GPM nor is it elucidated in the PBDs (tho its possible i have just not come accross it yet). But my concern really in bringing it up is because there are a lot of issues related to it that i have also attempted to discuss in other topics. partly also because just last week i have received complaints from end-users about not getting the kind of items that they wanted. this of course could either be due to faulty/inadequate specifications or haphazard inspection and testing. From my own experience the inspection and testing is a weak link both in the PBD preparation and in the project implementation. I think a lot of procurement practitioners just dont pay that much importance to it - yet. part of the problem also is that there is no standard way of inspecting and testing items. but its importance - the link between the inspection and tests as stated in the GCC/SCC and the work of the inspection committee - is not to be trivialized.

I may have missed the entire context of the topic. But if it is for for documentation, i believe a discussion with the resident auditor with particular reference to the new audit manual of COA may help.
For further update on inspections and Testings ,you can refer to GAAM volume 11 and the Property and supply manual. For us GOCCs we used both reference manual for proper guidance. bounce

i am trying in vain to get hold of a copy of the GAAM right now. I trust that if i would procure a 75 KVA generator or a totally enclosed lifeboat with gravity type davit, i could easily copy the inspections and tests required in the GAAM that you mentioned. what about if a procure an electronic libraby, would the GAAM contain the inspections and tests required too? if any and all items that a government entity would procure now or in the future is already in the GAAM then half of the issue is already solved. the other half would only be a matter of training the inspectors to refer to the GAAM for all inspections and tests.
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Re: contract form or purchase order

Post by sunriser431 on Thu Oct 07, 2010 9:01 pm

charlie brown wrote: i am trying in vain to get hold of a copy of the GAAM right now. I trust that if i would procure a 75 KVA generator or a totally enclosed lifeboat with gravity type davit, i could easily copy the inspections and tests required in the GAAM that you mentioned. what about if a procure an electronic libraby, would the GAAM contain the inspections and tests required too? if any and all items that a government entity would procure now or in the future is already in the GAAM then half of the issue is already solved. the other half would only be a matter of training the inspectors to refer to the GAAM for all inspections and tests.
If that is the case, you can refer to other government agencies that has the expertise, capability and experiencce. For example laboratory testing for rice, you can refer it to NFA, or for computers and softwares you can seek assistance from NCC, For Constructions materials you can seek assistance from DPWH, For communication equipment there is the NTC, For Firearms and explosives you can refer it to the PNP, for forestry products like lumbers there is the DENR, For generators there is the NPC, for lifeboat maybe PN or marina, and so on. If In-house personnel dont have the capabibility to conduct inspections and testing then other government agencies can be of help. For us GOCCs we been doing for quite sometime, with no problems. bounce


Last edited by sunriser431 on Fri Oct 08, 2010 7:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: contract form or purchase order

Post by engrjhez® on Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:33 am

There might be a reason behind COA asking for PO even when there is a Contract Agreement around. I hope Mikel can clarify on us his statement:
Mikel wrote:x x x
For contracts covered by Purchase Orders, it is to be noted that the agency accountant certifies as to the availability of funds for the contract. This certification is made in the face of the PO. However, for contracts other than PO (i.e. formal contracts), a separate Certification should be made by the proper accounting official or this may be incorporated in the contract itself. (the latter is only a suggestion, but it is already substantially compliant to the requirement)
x x x

As captured in the topic CAF vs EAA.Smile
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Re: contract form or purchase order

Post by Mikel on Fri Oct 08, 2010 12:13 pm

As I have stated, the requirement of PO was made pursuant to COA’s constitutional duty to promulgate accounting rules and regulations (PO is considered an accounting document), thus COA circular no. 2002-003 was issued, which to date remains in force.

For inspection purposes (in the case of msm326), a PO may be required if the specs is not clear in the contract, however, if the specs of the goods are clearly stated in the contract i think it is redundant na to ask for PO. Anyway, you could properly point this out to the auditor in your reply to AOM or NS, as the case maybe.


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Re: contract form or purchase order

Post by sunriser431 on Sat Oct 09, 2010 11:34 pm

Mikel wrote: For inspection purposes xxxx, a PO may be required if the specs is not clear in the contract, however, if the specs of the goods are clearly stated in the contract i think it is redundant na to ask for PO. xxxx
Mikel, for us GOCCs the Purchase Order is integral part of the contract which it is attached and must be signed and returned together with the contract agreement form. If delivery will be made, the PO will serve as basis for the inspections and compared against the actual delivery made by suppliers. bounce
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Re: contract form or purchase order

Post by fe a. araya on Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:14 pm

Mikel, i think there is a coa circular (COA Cir no. 79-122) requiring the signature of the accountant as witness (and to further certify availability of funds) on the face of the contract itself and not as mere certification attached to the contract in the same manner that the PO bears the signature of the accountant. From previous posts, as explained that PO is used for shopping and contract is for bidding mode of procurement. The PO in shopping serves already as a contract as it is a binding agreement that the supplier will deliver the goods with the required specs while the buyer is bound to pay the supplier who met the terms and conditions.
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Re: contract form or purchase order

Post by Mikel on Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:16 am

@ Ma’am Fe: COA Circular No. 79-122 was issued to disseminate LOI 968 dated 12/17/79 (applicable to NGAs, SUCs only) which required the accountant to act (sign) as a witness to government contracts, whose signature therein shall be deemed a certification of availability of funds for the contract. However in Melchor v. COA GR No. 95398 8/16/91, the SC held that where the chief accountant has issued a certificate of availability funds but failed to sign the contract as a witness, the contract is nevertheless enforceable.

Anyway, PO or formal contract (for want of a better term), as long as the requirements of the law are stipulated therein, the same will do. (if your auditors insist, then, either you reply to their NS or AOM [which is your right] or submit both PO and the contract. However, I suggest that if you think the contract already contains all the terms and conditions (including the technical specs, etc.), you should file a reply rather than submitting redundant documents.

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