ANNEX “A” DETAILED ENGINEERING

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ANNEX “A” DETAILED ENGINEERING

Post by abdlkhald on Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:40 am

Annex A- section d, stipulates:

[i][i]"d) Quantities – All construction quantities shall be computed to a reasonable
accuracy of not more than plus or minus ten percent (10%) of the final
quantities of the as-built structure".


literally, what does this mean? does it mean for example that if i there's an item in the scope of work containing a concrete pavement with a width of 3.0m ,length of 4.5m with thickness of 0.2m. the resulting volume shall be added
an additional 10% of its amount which will result to 2.97cubicmeter?
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Re: ANNEX “A” DETAILED ENGINEERING

Post by engrjhez® on Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:27 pm

abdlkhald wrote:Annex A- section d, stipulates:

[i][i]"d) Quantities – All construction quantities shall be computed to a reasonable
accuracy of not more than plus or minus ten percent (10%) of the final
quantities of the as-built structure".


literally, what does this mean? does it mean for example that if i there's an item in the scope of work containing a concrete pavement with a width of 3.0m ,length of 4.5m with thickness of 0.2m. the resulting volume shall be added
an additional 10% of its amount which will result to 2.97cubicmeter?
I would presume that you are also a technical (if not a Civil Engineer) personnel. Estimates, as the term implies does not actually seek for accuracy but rather precision. Hindi importante sa estimate kung exact - basta malapit sa katotohanan. When we get an estimated value of 23.1 bags of cement, we round it off di ba by 24 bags? Kasi we cannot order 23.1bags no matter what. The result of such rounding off is what prompts the allowance of 10% margin. Also there are a lot of factors affecting the estimate. Site conditions, wastage, and even inaccurately delivered quantity of materials. In your example, the computed volume of 2.7cu.m may actually be 2.8, 2.9 or 3cu.m. Or, pwede rin sa quantity na ng concrete (cement, sand, gravel) mapa-offset yung 10%. The same 10% kasi guides the COA of a reasonable estimate. Anything in excess of that shall be considered an overestimate. The difference lang is that the COA gauges the 10% by the cost and not on the quantity. Pero ganun na rin yun pag common price list na ang pinag-usapan. Very Happy
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Re: ANNEX “A” DETAILED ENGINEERING

Post by abdlkhald on Fri Aug 07, 2009 8:47 am

thanks.. engr jhez...
i had actually a project pending suspended because nagshort ang estimate ng owner sa mga quantities of materials nya..i.e.. concrete volumes and steelbars quantity..
ang nangyari kc engr is that we agreed that we will engage in a joint estimate para ma settle namin ang shortage.. the problem now when we arrived a figure.. i told him that we should add a factor of safety of 10% as the annex A of RA 9184 stipulates, for all the quantities above... ayaw nya pumayag kc hindi dw un ang ibig sabihin ng annex A ng RA 9184.. is that true?
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Re: ANNEX “A” DETAILED ENGINEERING

Post by riddler on Fri Aug 07, 2009 9:55 am

abdlkhald wrote:Annex A- section d, stipulates:

[i][i]"d) Quantities – All construction quantities shall be computed to a reasonable
accuracy of not more than plus or minus ten percent (10%) of the final
quantities of the as-built structure".


literally, what does this mean? does it mean for example that if i there's an item in the scope of work containing a concrete pavement with a width of 3.0m ,length of 4.5m with thickness of 0.2m. the resulting volume shall be added
an additional 10% of its amount which will result to 2.97cubicmeter?
26. Right to Vary
26.1. The PROCURING ENTITY’s Representative with the prior approval of the PROCURING ENTITY may instruct Variations, up to a maximum cumulative amount of ten percent (10%) of the original contract cost.

26.2. Variations shall be valued as follows:
(a) At a lump sum price agreed between the parties;
(b) where appropriate, at rates in this Contract;
(c) in the absence of appropriate rates, the rates in this Contract shall be used as the basis for valuation; or failing which
(d) at appropriate new rates, equal to or lower than current industry rates and to be agreed upon by both parties and approved by the Head of the PROCURING ENTITY

32. Bill of Quantities
32.1. The Bill of Quantities shall contain items of work for the construction, installation, testing, and commissioning of work to be done by the Contractor.
32.2. The Bill of Quantities is used to calculate the Contract Price. The Contractor is paid for the quantity of the work done at the rate in the Bill of Quantities for each item.

32.3. If the final quantity of any work done differs from the quantity in the Bill of Quantities for the particular item and is not more than twenty five percent (25%) of the original quantity, provided the aggregate changes for all items do not exceed ten percent (10%) of the Contract price, the PROCURING ENTITY’s Representative shall make the necessary adjustments to allow for the changes subject to applicable laws, rules, and regulations.
32.4. If requested by the PROCURING ENTITY’s Representative, the Contractor shall provide the PROCURING ENTITY’s Representative with a detailed cost breakdown of any rate in the Bill of Quantities.

The above Clauses are taken from the PBD under the Old IRR of RA9184. Normally at the start of the project, the Procuring's Entity Representative(Engineer) and the Contractor's Engineer shall conduct an "As Stake" Survey/Quantifications and (S-Curves, PERT CPMs, POW, etc. etc.) of the project(tama yung ginawa nyo, nag conduct kayo ng "joint estimate"). This is done to estimate the "over-runs/under-runs" in the Bill of Quantities. Any Sobra or Kulang shall be subjected to a Variation Orders pursuant to the applicable provisions of the PBD/IRR of Ra 9184. Pag me sobra at wala tayong item for a Variation Orders, eh di talagang deduction yung sobra sa claim ng contractor. Take note, In reality walang sobra yan engr, kulang pa nga eh! Very Happy Very Happy

But going back to your query, at talagang kinulang yung quantity estimate ng Procuring Entity by 10%. The PE should make a Variation Order by either deleting some quantities to meet the desired quantity of another Item. i.e. Construction of Roads... The PE should either shorten the lenght of the road constrction by 10% para may pambayad tayo sa Variation Order, anyway allowed naman tayo under RA 9184.

Lastly, paging DPWH pumasok naman kayo dito sa forum at matulungan nyo naman kami sa Infrastructure concerns namin. pa share naman ng idea nyo dyan. Sad Sad
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Re: ANNEX “A” DETAILED ENGINEERING

Post by abdlkhald on Fri Aug 07, 2009 11:35 am

Engr.. what i mean is that, nagcompute kami ng mga quantities dahl nagshort ang quantities nila,. after getting the final result.. my argument is to add 10 % as a factor of safety to the final result we arrived...

for example is that... nagcompute kami ng concrete pavement with a width of 3.0m ,length of 4.5m with thickness of 0.2m ang resulting volume nya is 2.7cu.m. Now what i would want to reflect in the Bill of Quantity is 2.97 cu.m after adding a factor of safety of 10 % as stated in RA 9184 ([i][i]"d) Quantities – All construction quantities shall be computed to a reasonable
accuracy of not more than plus or minus ten percent (10%) of the final
quantities of the as-built structure")
now my question is correct ba ung ginawa ko na mag add ng 10%?
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Re: ANNEX “A” DETAILED ENGINEERING

Post by riddler on Fri Aug 07, 2009 3:14 pm

abdlkhald wrote:Engr.. what i mean is that, nagcompute kami ng mga quantities dahl nagshort ang quantities nila,. after getting the final result.. my argument is to add 10 % as a factor of safety to the final result we arrived...

IRR of 9184 wrote:
Annex A- section d, stipulates:

(d) Quantities – All construction quantities shall be computed to a reasonable
accuracy of not more than plus or minus ten percent (10%).

This Clauses of the IRR pertains to Government Estimators/Engineers- that the their Estimate should not go beyond/lower than the 10% limit, otherwise they should be sanctioned administratively pursuant to Annex "E" Clause 4 of the old IRR.

abdlkhald wrote:
for example is that... nagcompute kami ng concrete pavement with a width of 3.0m ,length of 4.5m with thickness of 0.2m ang resulting volume nya is 2.7cu.m. Now what i would want to reflect in the Bill of Quantity is 2.97 cu.m after adding a factor of safety of 10 % as stated in RA 9184 (d) Quantities – All construction quantities shall be computed to a reasonable accuracy of not more than plus or minus ten percent (10%) of the final quantities of the as-built structure")[/i] now my question is correct ba ung ginawa ko na mag add ng 10%?

In the Bill of Quantities form (SF-INFR-___) the Government Estimator may add a 10% Quantity from 2.7 cu.m.to 2.97 cu.m.. However during the Implementation of the Project under Annex "E" Clause 1. "

. VARIATION ORDERS - CHANGE ORDER/EXTRA WORK ORDER
1.1. Variation Orders may be issued by the procuring entity to cover any
increase/decrease in quantities, including the introduction of new work items that are
not included in the original contract or reclassification of work items that are either
due to change of plans, design or alignment to suit actual field conditions resulting in
disparity between the preconstruction plans used for purposes of bidding and the "as
staked plans" or construction drawings
prepared after a joint survey by the
contractor and the Government after award of the contract
, provided that the
cumulative amount of the positive or additive Variation Order does not exceed ten
percent (10%) of the original contract price
. The addition/deletion of works under
Variation Orders should be within the general scope of the project as bid and
awarded. The scope of works shall not be reduced so as to accommodate a positive
Variation Order. A Variation Order may either be in the form of either a change
order or extra work order.

After a joint "as-stake surveys" the two parties shall make an actual "as-staKE QUantifications". Any cumulative increase of all Items shall be subject to a Variation Order.
Remember that the Contractor is only paid on the Actual Quantity Installed (measurement of Works) pursuant to Section ____ of the IRR. (Nose bleed ako dito) Ha haha bounce Very Happy But its ok.... MSUan ka ba pare?
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Re: ANNEX “A” DETAILED ENGINEERING

Post by abdlkhald on Fri Aug 07, 2009 4:18 pm

oo, pare msuan batch december 2005.. abdul khalid c. lomangcolob, contractor side ako, nahirapan kasi ako bro... project ko 4-storey hospital... short kasi ang estimate ng owner... pero alam mo pare... ang question ko lang is kung after mag re estimate kami at maka arrive kami ng figure pwede ba mag add ng 10% additional as what section d of RA 9184 stipulates? correct ba ung understanding ko sa provision?
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Re: ANNEX “A” DETAILED ENGINEERING

Post by riddler on Fri Aug 07, 2009 5:22 pm

abdlkhald wrote:oo, pare msuan batch december 2005.. abdul khalid c. lomangcolob, contractor side ako, nahirapan kasi ako bro... project ko 4-storey hospital... short kasi ang estimate ng owner... pero alam mo pare... ang question ko lang is kung after mag re estimate kami at maka arrive kami ng figure pwede ba mag add ng 10% additional as what section d of RA 9184 stipulates? correct ba ung understanding ko sa provision?

yup! im an MSUan too, "spirit of '87"! Welcome to the "nightmare" pare... parang di talaga pwd pare mag add kayo ng 10% sa actual(that is just an estimate provided by the IRR for Government Engineers/Estimators), kasi fixed ang measurement of works during your Actual Claims for Billing, dahil magsusu-sukat kayo ng Volume/Area of the Items as per plans, the COA engineers may see that.. I think their are other legal things that you can do to off-set the matter.. You may submit a Variation Order in the form Change Order deleting the Ceiling, Tlings,Painting, and other items to replenish the kulang of the Esitmate in Structural Concrete and Steel.What is important is that, it will not go beyond the 10% cumulative increase, kung somobra man dapat di lalampas sa 25% (anyway yung reprimand sa estimator eh depende naman yan sa HOPE, which I believed di nya naman gagawin sa kanyang Engineer).

Better kung before the project implementATION nag "as-stake quantification" kayo para ma determine kaagad akung saang item ang may kulang/sobra para may mapagttaponan kayo sa ibang items.. In that way, madali para sa lahat ang documentation.

PS. the 10% allowance maybe included during the preparation of plans. LIke, the Cost for structural concrete per cu.m. the Governement Engineers may include OCMs(up to 12%) saka i-imbed sa Cost ng Quantity, presto! na arrive pa rin yung target Cost natin.. That is also allowed under DO___ of the DPWH which the Agency may adopt too.
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Re: ANNEX “A” DETAILED ENGINEERING

Post by engrjhez® on Fri Aug 07, 2009 6:40 pm

abdlkhald wrote:... ang question ko lang is kung after mag re estimate kami at maka arrive kami ng figure pwede ba mag add ng 10% additional as what section d of RA 9184 stipulates? correct ba ung understanding ko sa provision?
If I may interrupt. My stand is this: Variation orders must be from a justifiable cause and merely not because of shortage in estimates. Although the law provides allowance of 10%, it is for purpose of reasonability and not for enforcement. If the cause of shortage is from arithmetical calculations in the prepared program of works, then it may be allowed. Pero pangit pa ring tingnan on the side ng government nagkamali. But generally i believe the 10% allowance is not a mandatory "jack-up" on estimates whenever the situation does not allow.

Going BACk, you should have determined the disparity in the estimated amount (ABC) and your actual estimate. The error that may have occured in the Program of Works (POW) is not an excuse for Variation Order because what is being applied in the contract is your submitted estimate, not the POW. The POW is just a guide or reference on the particular scope of project in terms of quantity take off and labor/equipment estimate. Ibig sabihin, kung nakita mo na me shortage na sa isang Item (say concreting), all you can do is to estimate it so that the particular scope is completed. Otherwise, kung binawasan natin ang quantity to match the "deficient" agency estimate, we are actually "agreeing" sa estimate (gets mo?). And the mere fact this issue was not brought up during the bidding process, then there has to be something wrong somewhere. Please take time to review the Bidding Documents so that the same problem in the future. Sana ma-resolve nyo na 'yan as early as this stage, para di na maging kumplikado pag pinasukan na ng COA (post audit). In any case, please share with us what happens next. Very Happy
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Re: ANNEX “A” DETAILED ENGINEERING

Post by abdlkhald on Sat Aug 08, 2009 8:42 am

tnx engrs...
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Re: ANNEX “A” DETAILED ENGINEERING

Post by riddler on Sun Aug 09, 2009 10:30 am

engrjhez wrote:If I may interrupt. My stand is this: Variation orders must be from a justifiable cause and merely not because of shortage in estimates. Although the law provides allowance of 10%, it is for purpose of reasonability and not for enforcement. If the cause of shortage is from arithmetical calculations in the prepared program of works, then it may be allowed. Pero pangit pa ring tingnan on the side ng government nagkamali. But generally i believe the 10% allowance is not a mandatory "jack-up" on estimates whenever the situation does not allow.

Going BACk, you should have determined the disparity in the estimated amount (ABC) and your actual estimate. The error that may have occured in the Program of Works (POW) is not an excuse for Variation Order because what is being applied in the contract is your submitted estimate, not the POW. The POW is just a guide or reference on the particular scope of project in terms of quantity take off and labor/equipment estimate. Ibig sabihin, kung nakita mo na me shortage na sa isang Item (say concreting), all you can do is to estimate it so that the particular scope is completed. Otherwise, kung binawasan natin ang quantity to match the "deficient" agency estimate, we are actually "agreeing" sa estimate (gets mo?). And the mere fact this issue was not brought up during the bidding process, then there has to be something wrong somewhere. Please take time to review the Bidding Documents so that the same problem in the future. Sana ma-resolve nyo na 'yan as early as this stage, para di na maging kumplikado pag pinasukan na ng COA (post audit). In any case, please share with us what happens next. Very Happy [/justify] [/color]

you are right engrjhez, the Bidder should have asked the matter during the Pre-Bid Conference. Pagdating naman sa Variation eh parang madali naman mag justify espescially sa mag Project Engineers natin kasi contol din nila ang poject.

Common kasi na nagyayari sa Construction of Roads ang Variation Orders. The reconnaisance Survey and POW have been done a year ago for LGU's then nagtatagal pa yan sa budget, unknowingly nag change na ang actual field condition ng road, pweding na erode na yung portion or my introduction na bagong improvement yung Local Barangay. Mahirap na ring i-update ng Governement Engineer natin yung POW kaya sa dami kaya tinutuloy na lang yung Procurement after budget approval, after which kung may NTP na yung winning bidder saka na sila mag "joint as-take/quantification" with Government Engineers to identify the areas for Variation. Di rin natin masisi yung Bidders kasi hanggang site investigation/visitation lang sila to come up with their Bid. Eka nga eh parang Rough Estimate yung ginagawa nila. Cool
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Detailed Engineering

Post by tobai10 on Tue Sep 28, 2010 11:42 am

When to prepare Detailed Engineering? is detailed engineering be prepared as early as preparation of PPMP and APP?
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Re: ANNEX “A” DETAILED ENGINEERING

Post by engrjhez® on Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:04 pm

tobai10 wrote:When to prepare Detailed Engineering? is detailed engineering be prepared as early as preparation of PPMP and APP?

Yes. It shall be consistent with the approved budget as reflected in the APP and corresponding PPMP. Smile

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Re: ANNEX “A” DETAILED ENGINEERING

Post by tobai10 on Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:20 pm

I appreciate your quick response. Thank you
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Re: ANNEX “A” DETAILED ENGINEERING

Post by tobai10 on Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:25 pm

follow up question> what is/are the sanction(s) if there is no submitted Detailed Engineering prior to Bidding?
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Re: ANNEX “A” DETAILED ENGINEERING

Post by jcolas on Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:45 pm

follow up question> what is/are the sanction(s) if there is no submitted Detailed Engineering prior to Bidding

I would like to cite Section 20, Rule VII of the Revised IRR which states that "prior to the advertisement of the IB( d pa tau nakarating sa bidding) a pre-procurement conference shall be staged to determine the readiness of the agency on whether the detailed engineering has been completed. The detailed engineering as discussed in Annex "A" includes survey until the preparation of the Bid Tender Docs. The ABC, which is a very vital component has not been determined yet. In this scenario posted by Sir tobai10, I am sure nobody is to be faulted yet, as the PE is still in the preparation stage.
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Re: ANNEX “A” DETAILED ENGINEERING

Post by vince on Tue Feb 02, 2016 9:55 pm

Can an agency proceed with the procurement of an infra project even if all the requirements under annex "A" have not been complied  with?

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