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bid docs unrealistic price

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bid docs unrealistic price

Post by abdlkhald on Tue Oct 06, 2009 5:20 pm

Good Morning;
Are you familiar with the official Department Order released by the DPWH concerning the standardization of bid docs for their posted projects? It seems that this will cause corruption on their part.
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Re: bid docs unrealistic price

Post by engrjhez® on Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:34 pm

abdlkhald wrote:Good Morning;
Are you familiar with the official Department Order released by the DPWH concerning the standardization of bid docs for their posted projects? It seems that this will cause corruption on their part.

Can you cite what DO corresponds to your query? Very Happy

About the underlined, i think it is very clear from the conception of the Procurement Law that Bidding Documents should be standardized as well as procedures. This is the very reason while Philippine Bidding Documents were formulated.

Section 6. Standardization of Procurement Process and Forms

6.1. To systematize the procurement process, avoid confusion and ensure transparency,
the GPPB shall pursue the development and approval of generic procurement
manuals and standard bidding documents and forms including those to be used for
major procurement like drugs and textbooks.

6.2. Once issued by the GPPB, the use of the Generic Procurement Manuals (GPMs),
Philippine Bidding Documents (PBDs), and other standard forms shall be mandatory
upon all Procuring Entities. However, whenever necessary, to suit the particular
needs of the procuring entity, modifications may be made, particularly for major and
specialized procurement, subject to the approval of the GPPB.
Is this you concern? Smile
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bid docs unrealistic price

Post by fe a. araya on Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:43 pm

While the topic is on "bid docs unrealistic price", the query is about the DO of DPWH re: standardization of Bid Docs. If this is the query, the GPPB has issued a standard bid docs already which we are using. However, if what is being referred to is the "bid docs unrealistic price", Sec. 17.4 of the IRR allows the BAC to ask the bidders to pay for the bid docs to recover cost of its preparation and development. However, as to how much, the IRR is silent. When is the cost "unrealistic" or "realistic"? The BAC is given that discretion to compute for the cost. Standardization of the cost of bid docs for all agencies is welcome. but I suggest it should not be based on the cost of the project because mataas man or mababa ang project, the same set of bid docs are purchased. Still its the BAC to decide perhaps thru a resolution and approved by the HOPE.
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Re: bid docs unrealistic price

Post by jcolas on Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:07 pm

I agree with madam fe when she said that mataas man o mababa ang project, prospective bidders will be purchasing the same set of bid docs. I do not know why GPPB or DBM has not come out with a Resolution or Memorandum setting a standard payment of Bid documents. You look at the ITB posted at the newspapers and you will see a variety of "non-refundable fee" for bid docs. You can even see exorbitant fees. This is resorted to by some BAC in order that their honorarium can be made certain. RA 9184 only statement about payment of bid docs is that, it should not be an amount that will deter greater participation.
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Re: bid docs unrealistic price

Post by sunriser431 on Tue Oct 06, 2009 11:39 pm

abdlkhald wrote:Good Morning;
Are you familiar with the official Department Order released by the DPWH concerning the standardization of bid docs for their posted projects? It seems that this will cause corruption on their part.
is this your concern?, click this link http://www.dpwh.gov.ph/doing_business/procurement/forms/cw.htm
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Re: bid docs unrealistic price

Post by riddler on Wed Oct 07, 2009 9:25 am

jcolas wrote:I agree with madam fe when she said that mataas man o mababa ang project, prospective bidders will be purchasing the same set of bid docs. I do not know why GPPB or DBM has not come out with a Resolution or Memorandum setting a standard payment of Bid documents. You look at the ITB posted at the newspapers and you will see a variety of "non-refundable fee" for bid docs. You can even see exorbitant fees. This is resorted to by some BAC in order that their honorarium can be made certain. RA 9184 only statement about payment of bid docs is that, it should not be an amount that will deter greater participation.

Agree. I have discussed this issue before at this forum. Methink that the GPPB should come up with a "uniform price control" to these fees, however I understand that this is also a source of honorarium to some BAC-TWG-Secretariat members. The danger is that, some prospective bidder may shy away from the process because of this.
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Re: bid docs unrealistic price

Post by amang'65 on Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:00 pm

for purposes of discussion, regarding the subject matter "bid docs unrealistic price" whether bid docs are "realistic or unrealistic" but i am sure what is REAL, is that we may sell the bid docs, (pwede rin namang libre) for how much? walang sinabi ang IRR kaya discretionary yan, but make sure reasonble naman, as the guidelines provide, it is to defray printing and packaging cost. you can estimate naman kung magkano nagastos ang gobyerno sa pag reproduce ng bid docs (eg. no. of reams of bond paper, ink, folder, plans, blue prints, etc.) and then that's the time you can tag kung magkanu ang 1 set bid docs. hindi naman suguro pwedeng, tumingin ka lang sa kisame at sasabihin mong "aaaaahhhh ok 1500.)
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bid docs unrealistic price

Post by fe a. araya on Wed Oct 07, 2009 6:27 pm

agree ako kay amang. discretionary talaga but if the reason why we're selling these bid docs is to recover the cost of the materials we used for the preparation of such, then its not what is happening. The NBC states that the sale of the bid docs, among others, is the source of the BAC honorarium and there is nowhere in the IRR or the NBC which provides that the proceeds may be used for purchase of coupon bond, ink for xerox of bid docs, etc or to reimburse what has been spent for the preparation of the bid docs.

The sad thing is that what we in the BAC Secretariat used the supplies of the Admin. Division since we belong to this Division. Ang kaso nga, we have limited fund allocation so medyo nababawasan ang supposed to be for the regular targets of the division. Buti nga in our case, medyo nakakahingi ako sa lahat na sectors ng office namin lalo na sa end-user ng project. At least, for supplies of the BAC Secretariat, we charge them from allotment of the different technical services. Strategy, ba!
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Re: bid docs unrealistic price

Post by amang'65 on Wed Oct 07, 2009 10:07 pm

fe a. araya wrote:agree ako kay amang. discretionary talaga but if the reason why we're selling these bid docs is to recover the cost of the materials we used for the preparation of such, then its not what is happening. The NBC states that the sale of the bid docs, among others, is the source of the BAC honorarium and there is nowhere in the IRR or the NBC which provides that the proceeds may be used for purchase of coupon bond, ink for xerox of bid docs, etc or to reimburse what has been spent for the preparation of the bid docs.

The sad thing is that what we in the BAC Secretariat used the supplies of the Admin. Division since we belong to this Division. Ang kaso nga, we have limited fund allocation so medyo nababawasan ang supposed to be for the regular targets of the division. Buti nga in our case, medyo nakakahingi ako sa lahat na sectors ng office namin lalo na sa end-user ng project. At least, for supplies of the BAC Secretariat, we charge them from allotment of the different technical services. Strategy, ba!



madam fe:

sale of bid docs is just one source for payment of honoraria. yes, it is stated in the IRR that sale of bid docs is to defray reproduction of such, may i invite you to section 17.4. of the revised IRR which states that, "Bidders may be asked to pay for the Bidding Documents to recover the cost of its preparation and development. xxx" which means the cost incurred by the government as a whole and not by the Admin Div hence, you'll have to make use of your supplies at the admin div. because being a BAC secretariat is now your additional function.
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Re: bid docs unrealistic price

Post by engrjhez® on Wed Oct 07, 2009 11:27 pm

Regarding 'seemingly very high bidding documents fee', we have yet to have a 'fixed' and 'specific' criteria. The law provides a reasonable bidding documents fee that will not cause to discourage bidders in joining, thereby losing the principle of competitiveness. But in absence of a stringent criteria, we cannot tell whether the fee is low or high for specific discretion of procuring entities.

Very Happy
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Re: bid docs unrealistic price

Post by fe a. araya on Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:32 pm

I agree that sale of bid docs is just one source of honorarium. NBC 2007-3 dtd Nov. 29, 2007 provides that it can be taken from the savings of the office. Actually, I have no problem already when it comes to supplies of the BAC as I said earlier, I charge it to the funds of the technical sectors who are the end-users of the projects. Ganun pa rin, what was spent by the government as a whole (and not by the Adm. Div. alone) was not reimbursed by the sale of the bid docs. Don't get me wrong. Am not against the honorarium (over my dead body!) we all deserve that. Perhaps just a portion of that income from the sale should go to the purchase of supplies which we used for the preparation of the bid docs.
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Re: bid docs unrealistic price

Post by amang'65 on Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:07 pm

fe a. araya wrote:I agree that sale of bid docs is just one source of honorarium. NBC 2007-3 dtd Nov. 29, 2007 provides that it can be taken from the savings of the office. Actually, I have no problem already when it comes to supplies of the BAC as I said earlier, I charge it to the funds of the technical sectors who are the end-users of the projects. Ganun pa rin, what was spent by the government as a whole (and not by the Adm. Div. alone) was not reimbursed by the sale of the bid docs. Don't get me wrong. Am not against the honorarium (over my dead body!) we all deserve that. Perhaps just a portion of that income from the sale should go to the purchase of supplies which we used for the preparation of the bid docs.



okay i got your point madam Fe, so you want a portion of the sales of bid docs be used to purchase some of the office supplies for the preparation/reproduction of bid docs? and it did not mention in the irr that we can use this proceeds to buy office supplies for the reproduction/preparation of bid docs kasi nga ito ay para sa honorarium ninyo? well if that is your intention, thats a nice idea, siguro if that is what you want to happen, ang remedy dyan, make it a policy among you and your BAC to set aside a portion from your honoraria to be used to buy office supplies for the reprodution/preparation of bid docs. What do you think mafam Fe?
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Re: bid docs unrealistic price

Post by fe a. araya on Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:42 pm

Thanks for getting my point. On my part, I am already doing what you suggested , that is, portion of my honorarium is sometimes used for immediate need for supplies Kasi nga matagal kng dadaan pa sa normal process. But I can't promise for other members of the BAC (and I doubt it, hehehe). Anyway, just a wishful thinking. Perhaps the DBM can do something about it thru the GPPB.
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Re: bid docs unrealistic price

Post by cgga91 on Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:53 pm

regarding abdlkhald question of the department order that set the price of bid documets of the dpwh relative to the abc of the project to bid, yes there is such a department order that was issued to this effect and as you have pointed out it was really so expensive. you can get a copy of this department order from any dpwh office.

if i am not mistaken the reason that the department issued such a department was to confront head on the departments problem of fixed or rigged bidding. their reasoning was if the cost of the bid docuemnts was set so high only those that are really interested in the projects would give their intent to bid and would then get rid of those bidders that only gives their intent with the expectation that a "buy-out" would happen.

the only problem is if you closely look at the department order it was detremental to small contractors and it seems to even favor only medium and large contractors taking into consideration the relative percentage of the bid documents cost against the corresponding range of the abc of the project. and the department also did not take into consideration the fact that most project that are bidded in the district engineering offices that are mostly funded from congressional funds have abc's that are so small that there are projects wherein the total bac collection of bid documents even approximates the abc of the project.

this is one dpwh department order that have good intentions but was not throughly been researched and carefully discussed with the appropriate stakeholders.

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Re: bid docs unrealistic price

Post by engrjhez® on Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:57 pm

fe a. araya wrote:Thanks for getting my point. On my part, I am already doing what you suggested , that is, portion of my honorarium is sometimes used for immediate need for supplies Kasi nga matagal kng dadaan pa sa normal process. But I can't promise for other members of the BAC (and I doubt it, hehehe). Anyway, just a wishful thinking. Perhaps the DBM can do something about it thru the GPPB.

Ironically, it is the BAC that must have the 'big say' in the preparation of annual budget (at least for LGUs). Why? Each end user submits their PPMP to the BAC Sec. The BAC Sec consolidates this into APP. The APP shall be recommended by the BAC to the HOPE for approval. The approved APP shall be forwarded to the local Sanggunian for budget enactment. And where are we again? Oh, the BAC forgot to submit their own PPMP?

In our agency, the BAC has the same experience with ms.fe. We almost beg for supplies because we don't have anything allocated for the BAC Secretariat specifically. On my term under the Secretariat, I initiated moves to be recognized, at least as a Section under the Executive Branch, to be allocated MOOE and Outlays. To justify the proposal, I have submitted a projected income (based on the past year sales of bidding documents). After deducting the maximum possible honoraria for the entire BAC staff, we still have some surplus. The surplus shall be part of the General Fund which form part as our basis for the allocation. Presto!

It is just a matter of planning the work and working the plan. Just sharing...Very Happy
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Re: bid docs unrealistic price

Post by RDV @ GP3i on Sat Oct 10, 2009 11:14 am

cgga91 wrote:regarding abdlkhald question of the department order that set the price of bid documets of the dpwh relative to the abc of the project to bid, yes there is such a department order that was issued to this effect and as you have pointed out it was really so expensive. you can get a copy of this department order from any dpwh office.

if i am not mistaken the reason that the department issued such a department was to confront head on the departments problem of fixed or rigged bidding. their reasoning was if the cost of the bid docuemnts was set so high only those that are really interested in the projects would give their intent to bid and would then get rid of those bidders that only gives their intent with the expectation that a "buy-out" would happen.

the only problem is if you closely look at the department order it was detremental to small contractors and it seems to even favor only medium and large contractors taking into consideration the relative percentage of the bid documents cost against the corresponding range of the abc of the project. and the department also did not take into consideration the fact that most project that are bidded in the district engineering offices that are mostly funded from congressional funds have abc's that are so small that there are projects wherein the total bac collection of bid documents even approximates the abc of the project.

this is one dpwh department order that have good intentions but was not throughly been researched and carefully discussed with the appropriate stakeholders.

True, DPWH has devised its own system of pricing bid documents. DPWH bids a lot of projects (infrastructure, in particular) that it is really better to standardize the pricing of the sale of its bid docs. The price is based on a certain fixed percentage of the ABC. I have not come across the D.O., but maybe some can just do some math if they come across newspaper ads by DPWH, price of bid docs over the ABC for the project. I have serious doubt, however, that for some small projects, the proceeds from the sale would almost equal the ABC. At the most, for DPWH projects, there would be around 20 bidders. To equal the ABC, the bid doc price should be around 5% of the ABC. It would be too high and I don't think that is how they are pricing the bid docs.

As far as the GPPB or DBM setting a standard price, instead of leaving it out for the procuring entities to set the level themselves, based on the general guidelines of at least "cost recovery" and not discouraging participation of prospective bidders, maybe it is worth looking back into again, particularly if some procuring entities price their bid docs without considering those two general guidelines. I say, however, that we cannot also always call for DBM or GPPB to step-in if some procuring entities want to make 'fun' of themselves, while the greater number are already comfortable with just the general guidelines and their pricing are 'realistic'.

If the GPPB or DBM sets a standard price, just in case, there is a probability of an even greater danger that, for some projects, the price set would be ridiculously too low that even nuisance bidders (or yung tinatawag na nagsasahod lang) would be more encouraged to join with the ulterior motive of just enriching themselves in the process.

Take the case also of the recent COMELEC bidding for the automated elections in 2010. On their own, COMELEC set the price of the bid docs at P1 Million each, which obviously will be too much to consider for honoraria of the BAC/BAC Secretariat/TWG alone since that in only one project. Despite selling the bid docs for that amount, around ten (10) 'serious' bidders participated. I say serious because if they were not, they would not just part away with that unrefundable amount. The price may have also discouraged the participation of the not-so serious bidders.
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Re: bid docs unrealistic price

Post by fe a. araya on Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:08 am

Thaks engrjhez. At the start, I really find some difficulties in finding funds for my supplies. But later, I discussed it with the BAC members and just like you I did some strategy also in coordination with the technical services of of our office and the blessing of the BAC members. At the start of the year, I prepared PR for the supplies of the BAC Secretariat and each technical service has their share to the funding for these supplies. At least, the techncial services are very supportive when it comes to the supplies of the BAC Secretariat because they can see that we are doing our job well in facilitating the bidding of their projects.

I brought this topic up up just to share to all BAC Secretariats who are experiencing the same problem with their supplies. At least they can learn from engrjhez and me. But first pf all, know and do your job well to show them that we deserve the assistance.
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Re: bid docs unrealistic price

Post by engrjhez® on Mon Oct 12, 2009 6:44 pm

fe a. araya wrote:Thaks engrjhez. At the start, I really find some difficulties in finding funds for my supplies. But later, I discussed it with the BAC members and just like you I did some strategy also in coordination with the technical services of of our office and the blessing of the BAC members. At the start of the year, I prepared PR for the supplies of the BAC Secretariat and each technical service has their share to the funding for these supplies. At least, the techncial services are very supportive when it comes to the supplies of the BAC Secretariat because they can see that we are doing our job well in facilitating the bidding of their projects.

I brought this topic up up just to share to all BAC Secretariats who are experiencing the same problem with their supplies. At least they can learn from engrjhez and me. But first pf all, know and do your job well to show them that we deserve the assistance.

You're welcome.

Your problem is also our problem because we all believe in one government. So until we learn that we need to learn, and solve each one's problem, we cannot move on.

But that's just me. Have a nice day! (and night!) Very Happy
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Re: bid docs unrealistic price

Post by Scanner on Wed Sep 08, 2010 9:44 am

jcolas wrote:I agree with madam fe when she said that mataas man o mababa ang project, prospective bidders will be purchasing the same set of bid docs. I do not know why GPPB or DBM has not come out with a Resolution or Memorandum setting a standard payment of Bid documents. You look at the ITB posted at the newspapers and you will see a variety of "non-refundable fee" for bid docs. You can even see exorbitant fees. This is resorted to by some BAC in order that their honorarium can be made certain. RA 9184 only statement about payment of bid docs is that, it should not be an amount that will deter greater participation.

- scratch May I inquire what section in R.A. 9184 that state or implied that "payments of biddocs should not be an amount that will deter greater participation." .. I had been browsing through the pages of this documents but I have to find any provision/s that Biddocs price shoud not be exorbitant enough to discourage more bidders to enter into public biddings...
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Re: bid docs unrealistic price

Post by engrjhez® on Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:23 am

Scanner wrote:
- scratch May I inquire what section in R.A. 9184 that state or implied that "payments of biddocs should not be an amount that will deter greater participation." .. I had been browsing through the pages of this documents but I have to find any provision/s that Biddocs price shoud not be exorbitant enough to discourage more bidders to enter into public biddings...

There actually none if you are looking "word for word". The spirit was implied and only the principle of "competitiveness" was considered. However, if you will look on the Procurement Manual for Local Government Units (at least for the provisions that are not repealed accordingly by the Revised IRR), you may find the nearest match in Volume 2 Page 21 the cut out section below:


Hope it helps. Smile

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Procurement Manual for Local Goverment Units

Post by Scanner on Wed Sep 08, 2010 2:39 pm

engrjhez® wrote:
Scanner wrote:
- scratch May I inquire what section in R.A. 9184 that state or implied that "payments of biddocs should not be an amount that will deter greater participation." .. I had been browsing through the pages of this documents but I have to find any provision/s that Biddocs price shoud not be exorbitant enough to discourage more bidders to enter into public biddings...

There actually none if you are looking "word for word". The spirit was implied and only the principle of "competitiveness" was considered. However, if you will look on the Procurement Manual for Local Government Units (at least for the provisions that are not repealed accordingly by the Revised IRR), you may find the nearest match in Volume 2 Page 21 the cut out section below:


Hope it helps. Smile


- Where can we find to download the e-copy of the Procurement Manual for Local Government Units.. I am not familiar nor i'm aware that it had been in existent.. seem it could be a very good reference for local procurement undertaking especially in provision or section which is not repealed by RA 9184 or when there issues that the GPRA has not commented or address forthrightly.
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Re: bid docs unrealistic price

Post by engrjhez® on Wed Sep 08, 2010 4:31 pm

Scanner wrote:[
- Where can we find to download the e-copy of the Procurement Manual for Local Government Units.. I am not familiar nor i'm aware that it had been in existent.. seem it could be a very good reference for local procurement undertaking especially in provision or section which is not repealed by RA 9184 or when there issues that the GPRA has not commented or address forthrightly.

Please click on this link >>>GPPB Downloadables Smile
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Re: bid docs unrealistic price

Post by jcolas on Wed Sep 08, 2010 7:54 pm

May I inquire what section in R.A. 9184 that state or implied that "payments of biddocs should not be an amount that will deter greater participation." .. I had been browsing through the pages of this documents but I have to find any provision/s that Biddocs price shoud not be exorbitant enough to discourage more bidders to enter into public biddings...

Sir Scanner, as answered by Sir Engrjhez,kung hahanapin mo yung phrase na "payments of biddocs should not be an amount that will deter greater participation" wala ka talaga makikita, but if you read the Basic Principles of Procurement, you will realize that it is gunning for the participation of the many and the Procuring Entity should not make it difficult for the bidders to participate and one is, by charging a very exorbitant fee. I hope I have made myself clear.
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Re: bid docs unrealistic price

Post by sunriser431 on Wed Sep 08, 2010 8:32 pm

Scanner wrote:
jcolas wrote:I agree with madam fe when she said that mataas man o mababa ang project, prospective bidders will be purchasing the same set of bid docs. I do not know why GPPB or DBM has not come out with a Resolution or Memorandum setting a standard payment of Bid documents. You look at the ITB posted at the newspapers and you will see a variety of "non-refundable fee" for bid docs. You can even see exorbitant fees. This is resorted to by some BAC in order that their honorarium can be made certain. RA 9184 only statement about payment of bid docs is that, it should not be an amount that will deter greater participation.

- scratch May I inquire what section in R.A. 9184 that state or implied that "payments of biddocs should not be an amount that will deter greater participation." .. I had been browsing through the pages of this documents but I have to find any provision/s that Biddocs price shoud not be exorbitant enough to discourage more bidders to enter into public biddings...
Excerpts from NPM 038-2004 Date 3/29/2004. For information purpose only. bounce
4. Whether or not the cost/rate of bidding documents as provided under Section 17.5 of IRR-A subject to Sangguniang Bayan ordinance.

Section 17.5 of the IRR-A does not prescribe a standard fee or rate for the payment of bidding documents by prospective bidders. However, such fees should not be unconscionable, or should be fair enough to recover the cost of its preparation and development.

In this regard, considering that the procuring entity has the discretion to charge for acquiring copies of the bidding documents or to make them available to prospective bidders, a procuring entity may opt to prescribe the fees thru a Sangguniang Bayan ordinance.
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Re: bid docs unrealistic price

Post by jcolas on Wed Sep 08, 2010 10:17 pm

However, such fees should not be unconscionable, or should be fair enough to recover the cost of its preparation and development.

Sir Sunriser, you nailed it right!!!
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Re: bid docs unrealistic price

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