Inclusion of Bill of quantities in Bid Document

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Inclusion of Bill of quantities in Bid Document

Post by olrac_tm on Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:07 pm

anyone could help me if bill of quantities are included in the bidding document for infra?
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Re: Inclusion of Bill of quantities in Bid Document

Post by riddler on Tue Nov 10, 2009 4:49 pm

olrac_tm wrote:anyone could help me if bill of quantities are included in the bidding document for infra?

Absolutely Yes olrac. Bill of Quantities is the "heart and soul" of the Bidding documents, it should be included.
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Re: Inclusion of Bill of quantities in Bid Document

Post by sunriser431 on Wed Nov 11, 2009 4:06 pm

olrac_tm wrote:anyone could help me if bill of quantities are included in the bidding document for infra?
Yes, it it required and it form part of the PBDs (infra), you can refer it in Section VIII. Bill of Quantities. bounce
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accomplished bill of quantities

Post by chyle on Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:11 pm

Can anyone send me a copy of an accomplished bill of quantities? preferred is aboq actually used in an infrastructure bidding. Thanks! please email to chyle08@gmail.com
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Re: Inclusion of Bill of quantities in Bid Document

Post by riddler on Mon Feb 22, 2010 4:32 pm

chyle wrote:Can anyone send me a copy of an accomplished bill of quantities? preferred is aboq actually used in an infrastructure bidding. Thanks! please email to chyle08@gmail.com

i dont have a scanner so i can send you the sample, but you can use the old sample form SF-INFR-55.
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Re: Inclusion of Bill of quantities in Bid Document

Post by amang'65 on Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:10 pm

in my opinion i think what matters is the technical specifications/design. because you cannot come up with your quantitative computations without going over the given specifications and design.
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Re: Inclusion of Bill of quantities in Bid Document

Post by engrjhez® on Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:27 pm

chyle wrote:Can anyone send me a copy of an accomplished bill of quantities? preferred is aboq actually used in an infrastructure bidding. Thanks! please email to chyle08@gmail.com

An accomplished form (bill of quantities) should look like your "program of works". It would indicate all the materials (per item) without the unit prices and total costs. Very Happy
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Re: Inclusion of Bill of quantities in Bid Document

Post by chyle on Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:16 pm

thanks to all who replied!

wow, it is really that detailed Very Happy i thought i may be doing something wrong. hehe
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Re: Inclusion of Bill of quantities in Bid Document

Post by sunriser431 on Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:49 pm

chyle wrote:Can anyone send me a copy of an accomplished bill of quantities? preferred is aboq actually used in an infrastructure bidding. Thanks! please email to chyle08@gmail.com
as requested, you can now check your e-mail. bounce
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Re: Inclusion of Bill of quantities in Bid Document

Post by chyle on Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:35 pm

thanks sunriser!

to all:

after seeing the sample form, which seems to consider only the costs of materials, my question now is how about the other costs like labor, indirect cost, vat? how do I reflect that in the bill of quantities then? thanks!
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Re: Inclusion of Bill of quantities in Bid Document

Post by sunriser431 on Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:03 pm

chyle wrote:thanks sunriser!

to all:

after seeing the sample form, which seems to consider only the costs of materials, my question now is how about the other costs like labor, indirect cost, vat? how do I reflect that in the bill of quantities then? thanks!
You're welcome chyle, as to your other concern, have you tried to read the "Notes on the Bill of Quantities"? (Section V111 of the 3rd edition PBDs for Infra.).
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Re: Inclusion of Bill of quantities in Bid Document

Post by riddler on Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:06 pm

chyle wrote:thanks sunriser!

to all:

after seeing the sample form, which seems to consider only the costs of materials, my question now is how about the other costs like labor, indirect cost, vat? how do I reflect that in the bill of quantities then? thanks!

dear chyle,

the bidder in the preparation of their Bids must include these indirect cost in order for the BAC to properly evaluate the matter and determine the LCRB. these indirect cost shall be embedded in the different items of works as reflected in the Bill of Quantities forms.. (kindly read how to conduct a Bid Evaluation on the amended IRR) Very Happy chyle, i think you need to consult your local engineer in your area to assist you in this situation... if you can coordinate with the DPWH or Municipal/City Engineer in your area, they can help you out on this matter. Smile
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Re: Inclusion of Bill of quantities in Bid Document

Post by amang'65 on Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:41 am

point of clarification mga panyeros.

do we have to provide the agnecy's bill of quantity to bidders or is it the bidder who should attach their bill of quantity based on the agnecy's given specifications that will later form part and parcel of the contract? I was just wondering why should we provide the bidders the agency's bill of quantity when they should only rely on the detailed specifications in computing their own bill of quantities. para kasing spoon feeding if we provide them the bill of quantity.
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Re: Inclusion of Bill of quantities in Bid Document

Post by riddler on Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:08 pm

amang1965 wrote:point of clarification mga panyeros.

do we have to provide the agnecy's bill of quantity to bidders or is it the bidder who should attach their bill of quantity based on the agnecy's given specifications that will later form part and parcel of the contract? I was just wondering why should we provide the bidders the agency's bill of quantity when they should only rely on the detailed specifications in computing their own bill of quantities. para kasing spoon feeding if we provide them the bill of quantity.

engrjhez wrote:An accomplished form (bill of quantities) should look like your "program of works". It would indicate all the materials (per item) without the unit prices and total costs. .

As mentioned by engrjhez, the BOQ shall contain the quantity/s of item of works in cubic meters, square meters, kliograms, bd.ft., linear meters, lump sums, SpL works, etc. etc. sans the unit prices and total cost.. the ABC shall be posted but not the detailed agency estimate made by the PE. THe detailed specification of the ABC shall be included in Sec. VI of the PBD which shall form part of the contract. If we shall not provide the prospective bidder/s the Bill of Quantities it shall caused a much bigger headache on the part of both parties during contract implementation.. Questions like these may arise.. What shall the basis of "as Stake or quantity take-off to determine the Variation Order/s?, how do we quantify the claims of the contractor vis-a-vis their bid with respect also to the Agency estimate? and so on... Very Happy Smile
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Re: Inclusion of Bill of quantities in Bid Document

Post by Guest on Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:12 pm

According to the PBD the Bidder should provide for the BOQ
13. Documents Comprising the Bid: Financial Component
13.1. Unless otherwise stated in the BDS, the financial component of the bid shall contain the following:
(a) Financial Bid Form, which includes bid prices and the bill of quantities and the applicable Price Schedules, in accordance with ITB Clauses 15.1 and 15.4;

15.2. The Bidder shall fill in rates and prices for all items of the Goods described in the Bill of Quantities.

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Re: Inclusion of Bill of quantities in Bid Document

Post by riddler on Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:31 pm

Pritong Kandule wrote:According to the PBD the Bidder should provide for the BOQ
13. Documents Comprising the Bid: Financial Component
13.1. Unless otherwise stated in the BDS, the financial component of the bid shall contain the following:
(a) Financial Bid Form, which includes bid prices and the bill of quantities and the applicable Price Schedules, in accordance with ITB Clauses 15.1 and 15.4;

15.2. The Bidder shall fill in rates and prices for all items of the Goods described in the Bill of Quantities.


15. Bid Prices

15.1. The contract shall be for the whole Works, as described in ITB Clause 1.1, based on the priced Bill of Quantities submitted by the Bidder.

15.2. The Bidder shall fill in rates and prices for all items of the Works described in the Bill of Quantities. Bids not addressing or providing all of the required items in the Bidding Documents including, where applicable, bill of quantities, shall be considered non-responsive and, thus, automatically disqualified. In this regard, where a required item is provided, but no price is indicated, the same shall be considered as non-responsive, but specifying a "0" (zero) for the said item would mean that it is being offered for free to the Government.
15.3. All duties, taxes, and other levies payable by the Contractor under the Contract, or for any other cause, prior to the deadline for submission of bids, shall be included in the rates, prices, and total bid price submitted by the Bidder.x x x x x .

Very Happy the BOQ shall be provided by the PE and Bid prices per unit of quantity shall be filled-up by the Bidder/s. Very Happy
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Re: Inclusion of Bill of quantities in Bid Document

Post by Guest on Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:49 pm

5. Procedure for the Preparation of the Bidding Documents
The bidding documents are prepared following the PBDs and must contain the following information:
1. ABC and source of funds;
2. Date, time and place of the pre-bid conference (where applicable), submission of bids and opening of bids;
3. Eligibility requirements;
4. ITB, including criteria for eligibility, bid evaluation and post-qualification, submission of bids, and opening of bids;
5. SOW;
6. Form of Bid, Price Form, and Bill of Quantities;
x x x

Found out that under the Manual BAC shall be the one who makes the BOQ..

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Re: Inclusion of Bill of quantities in Bid Document

Post by amang'65 on Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:59 pm

okey i think i am getting closer, correct me if i am wrong engr.riddler,

when we say bill of quantity, it means the itemized program of work in a certain unit e.g. item no.1 concrete works - 100 cu.m, item no.2 tiles works - 250 sq.m etc etc, but not necessarily the quantified materials like, number of bags of cement, number of pieces of tiles etc etc ganun ba?
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Re: Inclusion of Bill of quantities in Bid Document

Post by Guest on Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:06 pm

As defined sa Manual for Procurement of Infra
1.2. Bill of Quantities refers to a list of the specific items of the Work and their corresponding unit prices, lump sums, and/or provisional sums.

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Re: Inclusion of Bill of quantities in Bid Document

Post by riddler on Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:09 pm

amang1965 wrote:okey i think i am getting closer, correct me if i am wrong engr.riddler,

when we say bill of quantity, it means the itemized program of work in a certain unit but not necessarily the quantified materials like, number of bags of cement, number of pieces of tiles etc etc ganun ba?

ganito po yun, halimbawa don sa agency estimate natin kailangan natin e 100 kilograms na bakal at P70.00 per kilo.. ang ilalagay natin sa Bill of Quantities under the "description column" eh yung Structural Steel then under naman sa "unit coulmn" eh Kilograms tapos doon naman sa "quantity column" lagay natin 100 then blankohan natin yung columns ng "unit price" at "amount".. Very Happy bale bahala na yung bidder kung ang illagay nya sa unit price eh P60.00 per kilogram, at least may saving tayo na P10.00 per kilogram, di ba. Very Happy Very Happy hirap ako sa englis hirap parin sa tagalog, ano kaya kung mag ilongo na lang ako, he he he. Very Happy

yung number of bags cement or pieces of tiles sa detalye ng agency estimate natin nakalagy yun...

halimbawa gagawa tayo ng concrete column na 1x1x3 bale 3 cu.m. yaan.. syempre ang ppasok sa item of work sa BOQ nang Concrete natin eh cu.m. (say 4000 psi).. bale di na talaga nakalagay kung ilang bags yan kasi pagdating sa implemtation eh titingnan lang natin sa Quality Test kung pumasok yung concrete sa 4000psi na specification natin. Very Happy
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Re: Inclusion of Bill of quantities in Bid Document

Post by engrjhez® on Tue Feb 23, 2010 6:49 pm

amang1965 wrote:point of clarification mga panyeros.

do we have to provide the agnecy's bill of quantity to bidders or is it the bidder who should attach their bill of quantity based on the agnecy's given specifications that will later form part and parcel of the contract? I was just wondering why should we provide the bidders the agency's bill of quantity when they should only rely on the detailed specifications in computing their own bill of quantities. para kasing spoon feeding if we provide them the bill of quantity.

It is not actually 'spoon feeding' like it may seem. Mas 'spoon feeding' pa nga sa goods kasi mas obvious na unit prices na lang magtatalo. But in infrastructure projects, a lot of variation may occur. Consider a project (sample only) say CONCRETING OF BASKETBALL COURT. If it is a already an existing court, then basically we only need items like (1) base preparation and (2) concreting works. Item (1) does not need any materials. It only needs labor and equipment, so no materials may be required for that item. Under item (2), it may include, but not limited to form lumbers, cement-sand-gravel, reinforcing bars and CWNs. Now, does throwing all the quantities to the bidder constitute 'spoon feeding'? I think not. Kasi even if the materials are pre-estimated, there are a lot of factors that could significantly affect the estimate other than materials. And since labor component is generally estimated between 30-40% of the material cost, the bidder could maintain a fairly priced estimate in the BOQ and dive the price for labor (if the bidder believes they can do it at that cost). A lot of "diskarte" can even be applied during implementation. Some can do it by pure labor. Some can use bagger-mixer. Some can even use ready mix concrete and still arrive at the desired specs and project requirement. So, the Agency is not actually being 'hurt' by giving a BOQ form.

For me, the BOQ only serves as guide to uncertainties of estimates and so that the bidder can have an overview of what materials and the quantities involved as well as the methodology as estimated (as riddler aka Engr. Ruel pointed out). The rest of the labor/equipment as well as indirect/incidental costs components will be reflected later naman in the Bid Form and Bid Schedules.

Sa totoo lang, hindi rin naman natin para i-check (I don't know if others do) yung delivery ng materials as indicated in the BOQ. As engineers, we only check (a)material specs, then (b)methodology, then the (c)final product. Kung kulang o sobra and delivery nga materials a compared with accomplished BOQ, it's a contractor's issue. For me, it doesn't matter as long as the the (a)+(b)+(c) are all well satisfied.

Very Happy
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Re: Inclusion of Bill of quantities in Bid Document

Post by sunriser431 on Tue Feb 23, 2010 9:13 pm

I woud like to share with you guys how we prepare our BOQ ( Procurement for Infra project). Our engineering Department will prepare the Work order for the projects, with the help of the project engineer, he will provide us (BAC Secretariat) all the necessary information to be copied later (without the agency estimates) to the BOQ. For example in Category I (For mobilization schdule) say 5 days needed, Category 2 (supply and Installation of Service Transmission line for electrical energization ) with complete details for all materials, and the labor component needed. Category 3 (contingencies) provided by a certain percentage for the overall cost of the project. All components for mobilization,Materials, labor and contingencies will provided by the PE minus only the agency estimates,(unit of measures will be provided) besides the PE have published the ABC for the project, its up to the contractor to provide the unit cost, and other components needed for the completion of the project. I would definitely agree with engr. Ruel, that any variation can be easily identified, during the actual implementation of the project, so adjustment can be made. bounce
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Re: Inclusion of Bill of quantities in Bid Document

Post by amang'65 on Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:02 am

sorry folks, naputol internet connetion namin kahapon kaya hind pa ako naka pad sign out.

well what can i say mga civil engineers kayo and you said it all, walang sobra at walang kulang, buti na lang in english and in tagalog at hindi in ilongo otherwise iilan lang ang makakaintindi, right engr.ruel?

the thing why i said it seem to be spoon feeding kasi yung mga bidders they have their engineers, so why bother providing them the PE's bill of materials, let them compute for the quantity of materilals needed for a certain item of work. yung PE's bill of materials/quantity is for our own consumption, it will later serve as checking/comparing the bid proposal vs the PE's bill of quantity/materials during evaluation. ang importante claro sa mga bidders yung design/specifcations, say concrete mixture, spacing ng mga steel bars and so on because i believe out of this given design/specifications bidders can easily compute for the quantity of materials needed.

you said jhez, na "A lot of "diskarte" can even be applied during implementation. Some can do it by pure labor. Some can use bagger-mixer. Some can even use ready mix concrete and still arrive at the desired specs and project requirement. So, the Agency is not actually being 'hurt' by giving a BOQ form." so yun naman pala, what is then the point of providing them the bill of quantity for say cement-sand-gravel kung ang diskarte pala nila ay ready mixed concrete, so again it is a matter of specification basta nasunod yung desired concrete mixture.

again you said "As engineers, we only check (a)material specs, then (b)methodology, then the (c)final product. Kung kulang o sobra and delivery nga materials a compared with accomplished BOQ, it's a contractor's issue. For me, it doesn't matter as long as the the (a)+(b)+(c) are all well satisfied" so again what is the point of providing BOQ to bidders kung final product din pala and concern natin, therefore it is a matter of specifications again, paano kung erroneous ang estimate ng PE saan na mapupunta kung sobra and materials kasi yun and nailagay natin sa BOQ?

sa aking lang, do we have to provide the BOQ to bidders? i think hindi na sayang lang ang papel heh.he, it is the bidders who should attach their BOQ based on the PE's given specifications for a certain given item of work.
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Re: Inclusion of Bill of quantities in Bid Document

Post by engrjhez® on Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:10 pm

amang1965 wrote:
...
sa aking lang, do we have to provide the BOQ to bidders? i think hindi na sayang lang ang papel heh.he, it is the bidders who should attach their BOQ based on the PE's given specifications for a certain given item of work.

Pero the law requires, and we are bound to comply. And as Engr. Ruel (riddler) pointed out, it would be very difficult to 'gauge' the project if "anything goes" ang BOQ. Kailangan, on equal footing sila (bidders) at least sa materials. Saka, mahirap sa variation/change order kung walang 'common platform'.

Consider this: Reinforcing steel bars (RSB) on concrete pavements are used primarily as temperature bars because the concrete tends to shrink (creep) after some time. The use of RSB is a common engineering practice. Pero, there are some studies and research methodologies (even practices din) that may suggest the use of other materials for the same purpose. Some are: wire mesh, plain round bar, and even some research use bamboo sticks - and still argue that it served the same purpose. Even in the condition that we identify the use of RSB, and we failed to indicate the required spacing, it will put the actual quantity of steel required in actual construction (although the code provides minimum spacing).

If we will not provide the BOQ, there is no way of assessing that the material specs, and the methodology shall be as estimated by the agency. I think, that is the best explanation I can answer for the question.

Very Happy
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Re: Inclusion of Bill of quantities in Bid Document

Post by amang'65 on Wed Feb 24, 2010 4:44 pm

indeed it is what the law provides and of course we are bound to comply, there is no question about that, but somtimes we tend to think and it is sometimes irrelevant.

for this particular discussion, isnt it that it is the detailed design/specifications is the "common platform" as you termed it? specifying what kind or type of material to be used is part of the design/specs and i think that is what is important but not to list the number or quantity of a certain material for a bidder to simply place their unit price for that particular material/item. well if our design is to use bamboo sticks then so be it, now it is up to the bidder to indicate how many bamboo sticks should be used provided that we give them the spacing and area or maybe volume as to where that bamboo stick is to be used, which now becomes the bidders BOQ. same is true for say concrete mixture (correct me if i am wrong), if our design is class "A" concrete mixture, then let the bidder compute for the number of bags of cement, sand and gravel provided that we give them the volume to be "concreted", but not to provide the bidder the readily available itimized listing of materials for them to simply quote their unit price. hindi ba ganun (heh.he)? because as far as my understanding is concerned ang common denominator, platform o equal footing or what ever ay ang design and specifications, dito magbebase ang bidder ng kanilang computation and eventually he/she will come up with his/her own itemized bill of materials for us now as PEs to compare with our own BOQ. and besides i do not see any difficulty whenever there will be change/variation order in case it arises kasi ang basis pa rin natin ay ang bidders proposal. so thats it folks, i leave my discussion here at bahala na si batman Very Happy

p.s.
actually we tried this before, we only provided the bidders a copy of the detailed/plans and specifications of a certain program of work, of course naka attach yung itemized "item of works" at walang itemized na bill of materials, sa awa ni batman wala namang bidder na nagreklamo, successful naman yung bidding with the presence of the auditor pa yun at nasunod naman yung desired specs. anyways as we've always said it is a matter of interpretation, in ilongo "kanya kanyang style". hihihi
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