Are there instances where competitive bids can specify a specific make of a product?

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Are there instances where competitive bids can specify a specific make of a product?

Post by adroth on Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:55 am

The following is a bid invite that was published on PITC, and presumably on PhilGEPS as well.

The object of inquiry is item #2 on the bid. A specific grenade launcher, an M320, was specified as the preferred product.

Is this permitted?

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Re: Are there instances where competitive bids can specify a specific make of a product?

Post by RDV @ GP3i on Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:03 pm

adroth wrote:The following is a bid invite that was published on PITC, and presumably on PhilGEPS as well.

The object of inquiry is item #2 on the bid. A specific grenade launcher, an M320, was specified as the preferred product.

Is this permitted?

M320 is a kind of grenade launcher . It is a product specification not really a brand name or a product code that would be violative of Sec. 18 of RA 9184.
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Re: Are there instances where competitive bids can specify a specific make of a product?

Post by engrjhez® on Fri Jul 30, 2010 9:05 pm

RDV @ GPPPI wrote:
adroth wrote:The following is a bid invite that was published on PITC, and presumably on PhilGEPS as well.

The object of inquiry is item #2 on the bid. A specific grenade launcher, an M320, was specified as the preferred product.

Is this permitted?

M320 is a kind of grenade launcher . It is a product specification not really a brand name or a product code that would be violative of Sec. 18 of RA 9184.

Agree with RDV. M320 is a specification, just like M203, M230, etc.

There is this site about Grenade Launchers that you might want to read about. Smile
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Re: Are there instances where competitive bids can specify a specific make of a product?

Post by sunriser431 on Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:46 pm

are these exclusive manufactured by Heckler & Koch? Is this your other concern? click this link for additional info. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M320_grenade_launcher bounce
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Re: Are there instances where competitive bids can specify a specific make of a product?

Post by adroth on Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:57 am

Sunriser pretty much got it.

The name "M320" is to grenade launchers what say "Civic" is to Honda, or "Camry" to Toyota. It is not a generic name for a rifle-mounted 40mm grenade launcher.

Its a relatively new grenade launcher, so the name and patents are still owned by HK. (Older weapons like the M-16 et. al. are a different story)

Lets simplify this. Can a government entity specifically state that it wants a "Civic" or a "Camry"?

Would this work if there are numerous dealers for the Civic or Camry that can participate in the bid, or was this a no-go from the start?
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Re: Are there instances where competitive bids can specify a specific make of a product?

Post by RDV @ GP3i on Sun Aug 01, 2010 9:52 am

adroth wrote:Sunriser pretty much got it.

The name "M320" is to grenade launchers what say "Civic" is to Honda, or "Camry" to Toyota. It is not a generic name for a rifle-mounted 40mm grenade launcher.

Its a relatively new grenade launcher, so the name and patents are still owned by HK. (Older weapons like the M-16 et. al. are a different story)

Lets simplify this. Can a government entity specifically state that it wants a "Civic" or a "Camry"?

Would this work if there are numerous dealers for the Civic or Camry that can participate in the bid, or was this a no-go from the start?

Well, if M320 is not a generic name, then I stand corrected. Maybe you need to find out what is protected by patent in the case of the M320. If a specific part of the grenade launcher is the one protected by patent, the specification of that part could be indicated as part of the overall specification, without any reference to the product (M320), but it would nonetheless refer to the same product.

My sense is that, if that product (with that patented part) is what is really preferred by the end-user (AFP), specially if it is a very important component, then it may still be alright.

Besides, even if Direct Contracting could already been done it is still being procured through Public Bidding (considering that there still could be a number of suppliers from outside the country.)
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Re: Are there instances where competitive bids can specify a specific make of a product?

Post by engrjhez® on Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:14 am

adroth wrote:Sunriser pretty much got it.

The name "M320" is to grenade launchers what say "Civic" is to Honda, or "Camry" to Toyota. It is not a generic name for a rifle-mounted 40mm grenade launcher.

Its a relatively new grenade launcher, so the name and patents are still owned by HK. (Older weapons like the M-16 et. al. are a different story)

Lets simplify this. Can a government entity specifically state that it wants a "Civic" or a "Camry"?

Would this work if there are numerous dealers for the Civic or Camry that can participate in the bid, or was this a no-go from the start?

I still believe that M320 refers to a product specification. In military terms, it is a "system". H&K only joined and was awarded of the contract thru open competitive bidding in the US. That is the only reason why H&K appears to be the "exclusive manufacturer" of the M320 system (because they were awarded multi-year contract).

Here's how it turned out (taken from this link)
"In 2004, the U.S. Army announced a requirement for a new 40mm grenade system. Part of the requirements called for the new system to be a commercial off-the-shelf solution, ready for use, or ready for use with minimal modification. The requirements within the solicitation called for the new systems to be:
“…more reliable, more ergonomic, more accurate and safer than the M203 Grenade Launcher. The GLM shall be capable of firing all current U.S. standard 40mm x 46mm low-velocity ammunition. It must have a breach mechanism that is able to accept improved lethality munitions with longer payloads/projectiles than current 40X46mm munitions to accommodate system growth. The GLM must initially mount on the M4 Modular Weapon System with a mounting architecture flexible enough for adaptation to the M16A2 and M16A4 rifle as well as future rifles/carbines. The mounting hardware can differ for each host weapon; however, the basic launcher and sighting system must be able to mount to all host weapon variations with only minor modifications. When removed and replaced, the module will return to its normal bore alignment regardless of the host weapon interface.”

In May 2005, an announcement was made regarding the selection of the Heckler and Koch system as the winner of an open competition to provide a new 40mm grenade launching system. Designated the XM320, the system has been modified from the prior AG-C system to fit the needs of the U.S. Army.
The terms "Civic" and "Camry" are proprietary names synonymous to the brands "Honda" and "Toyota". RA 9184 expressly do not allow reference to brand names in the procurement of goods. Which means, you cannot ask for "Civic" or "Camry" because it defeats competition. The proper specifications must be sedan, four door, 2.0L, Gas A/T, seater capacity... etc.

Smile
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Re: Are there instances where competitive bids can specify a specific make of a product?

Post by Ignatius1 on Wed Aug 04, 2010 12:12 pm

engrjhez® wrote:
adroth wrote:Sunriser pretty much got it.

The name "M320" is to grenade launchers what say "Civic" is to Honda, or "Camry" to Toyota. It is not a generic name for a rifle-mounted 40mm grenade launcher.

Its a relatively new grenade launcher, so the name and patents are still owned by HK. (Older weapons like the M-16 et. al. are a different story)

Lets simplify this. Can a government entity specifically state that it wants a "Civic" or a "Camry"?

Would this work if there are numerous dealers for the Civic or Camry that can participate in the bid, or was this a no-go from the start?

I still believe that M320 refers to a product specification. In military terms, it is a "system". H&K only joined and was awarded of the contract thru open competitive bidding in the US. That is the only reason why H&K appears to be the "exclusive manufacturer" of the M320 system (because they were awarded multi-year contract).

The terms "Civic" and "Camry" are proprietary names synonymous to the brands "Honda" and "Toyota". RA 9184 expressly do not allow reference to brand names in the procurement of goods. Which means, you cannot ask for "Civic" or "Camry" because it defeats competition. The proper specifications must be sedan, four door, 2.0L, Gas A/T, seater capacity... etc.

Smile

The M320 is a specific product. Saying "H&K M320 grenade launcher and Colt M203 grenade launcher" is synonymous to saying "Honda Civic 4-door sedan and Toyota Camry 4-door sedan."

It isn't much of a competitive bidding once a specific product is mentioned.

The US Army contract award for the M320 has no bearing at all on this PMC bid.



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Re: Are there instances where competitive bids can specify a specific make of a product?

Post by engrjhez® on Wed Aug 04, 2010 9:14 pm

Ignatius1 wrote:
The M320 is a specific product. Saying "H&K M320 grenade launcher and Colt M203 grenade launcher" is synonymous to saying "Honda Civic 4-door sedan and Toyota Camry 4-door sedan."
Like RDV said, if M320 is proprietary and referring to specific product, then I stand corrected.

But with little that I know in the military, I still believe M320 is a specification referring to a "...more reliable, more ergonomic, more accurate and safer than the M203 Grenade Launcher. The GLM shall be capable of firing all current U.S. standard 40mm x 46mm low-velocity ammunition. It must have a breach mechanism that is able to accept improved lethality munitions with longer payloads/projectiles than current 40X46mm munitions to accommodate system growth. The GLM must initially mount on the M4 Modular Weapon System with a mounting architecture flexible enough for adaptation to the M16A2 and M16A4 rifle as well as future rifles/carbines. The mounting hardware can differ for each host weapon; however, the basic launcher and sighting system must be able to mount to all host weapon variations with only minor modifications. When removed and replaced, the module will return to its normal bore alignment regardless of the host weapon interface." (as quoted earlier). Instead of elaborating, they simply stated "M320". Hence, it's not similar to terms like "Civic" or the likes.

It isn't much of a competitive bidding once a specific product is mentioned.
Agree. Smile

The US Army contract award for the M320 has no bearing at all on this PMC bid.
Agree also. I have just mentioned the US' award as the example. Meaning, there are other competitors (other than H&K) that submitted similar products following that specifications. The term M320 (or XM320) was just designated some time later after the contract has been awarded... and it is actually the US military who designated that name (and not H&K). Smile
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Same Experience

Post by Berna on Thu Aug 05, 2010 2:35 pm

We had the same experience po... When we apply for loan for the procurement of government vehicle, we applied for Mitsubishi Strada, then we bid for the generic. The account officer of the bank told us that we should procure nothing else but Mitsubishi Strada. What if the winning bidder is the dealer of Ford or Toyota?

Relieved ... since the DBM did not issue clearance for the procurement of said vehicle, we did not pursue it...
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Re: Are there instances where competitive bids can specify a specific make of a product?

Post by Ignatius1 on Sat Aug 07, 2010 8:38 am

engrjhez® wrote:

I have just mentioned the US' award as the example. Meaning, there are other competitors (other than H&K) that submitted similar products following that specifications. The term M320 (or XM320) was just designated some time later after the contract has been awarded... and it is actually the US military who designated that name (and not H&K). Smile
"...the few, the proud Marines..."

I believe you are correct in that the designation originated from the US Army. To an extent I agree that in that context "M320" can be construed to mean the original specifications outlined by the US Army. Unfortunately, with our discussion as an example, using it can be misleading and can be construed to mean a specific grenade launcher now designated by the US Army as M320. It would have been better had they used the actual specifications you mentioned instead of using what amounts to a "short hand" of it.

To Bernadette - Thanks for sharing. That is indeed a good example. Perhaps the PMC will amend the document we are discussing.
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